The Pharisee and the Tax Collector

@fmf said
I am saying what I am saying. Absolutely no need for you to paraphrase me.

Do you agree then that Christians can be humble?

@dj2becker said
Do you agree then that Christians can be humble?

No, not in terms of their ideology as it pertains to self perception, self-exceptionalism, and misanthropy.

On the other hand, can they, say, draw a picture and then react modestly and with humility to plaudits from others for their talent? Yes, anyone can.

Can they, say, do virtuous things where only the beneficiary knows and no further recognition from others is sought? Yes, anyone can.

Start a thread about humility of that kind if you want. My argument here is about the implications of "born again" and "torturer god" ideology.

@fmf said
No, not in terms of their ideology as it pertains to self perception, self-exceptionalism, and misanthropy.

On the other hand, can they, say, draw a picture and then react modestly and with humility to plaudits from others for their talent? Yes, anyone can.

Can they, say, do virtuous things where only the beneficiary knows and no further recognition from others is sought? ...[text shortened]... if you want. My argument here is about the implications of "born again" and "torturer god" ideology.

Do you believe Dive is not humble in terms of his Christian ideology?

@dj2becker said
Do you believe Dive is not humble in terms of his Christian ideology?

divegeester is not a self-exalting, self-exceptionalizing, misanthropic "born again" ideolgue who propagates ersatz-humble, chest-beating, morally incoherent "torturer god" doctrine, so he is not intended to be on the receiving end of my argument on page 1. But if my stance gives him pause to reflect, that is a matter for him.

@fmf said
You have said that you welcome the 'end times' because after the destruction of the world you will go on to an afterlife. Meanwhile billions and billions of people that we can call "the next guy" will have their lives [and those of their children] destroyed and then they will be tortured for all eternity by fire. You think these superstitious beliefs on your part don't make you see yourself as being any different than "the next guy"?

God's grace and love are shown to those who come to Him, making this all about
God's mercy and grace, not about how special or righteous we are on our own.
There isn't anything again about me except God's love for me that saves me, and
He has made available to all His grace and mercy. So if we accept Him or not is on
us, He will judge each one of us for our deeds, words, and how we have acted
upon the earth, if we put other gods before Him, well that is frowned on and it
goes against the first Commandment. He will look at each of us and our whole
lives will be judged, if you think you can stand before God righteous in your own
eyes that is pride.

@kellyjay said
He will look at each of us and our whole
lives will be judged, if you think you can stand before God righteous in your own
eyes that is pride.

So can I have eternal life if I am not a member of your religion?

@fmf said
My issue with "humility" has been about "Heaven and Hell" since page 1. "Changing the topic"?

Really, you think God must allow those into His Kingdom that do not walk with
Him here? Those who think it isn't important enough to seek God in their lives
should be allowed in, because they didn't obey God and that should be ignored
why? God created the whole universe and those that hate Him, should be allowed
in why? God holds all the universe together by the power of His Word and the
ungrateful, unthankful, should be allowed in why? Anyone who sins before God, if
God is Holy God should ignore sin, why? All the sinners who think they can earn
their way into the Kingdom of God should be allowed in why?

If they not only sin against God, but demand, think, or hope He must still accept
them, because they are good in their own eyes, ignoring what Jesus did, instead
think they believe they are worthy of God's Kingdom, will God accept that? I think
your making demands on a Holy God you have no right or power to make, it is
His Kingdom not yours.

If we do not come to God admitting our guilt, admitting our sins, asking for the
grace He gives, we are trying to come into God's Kingdom some other way that
is not allowed. Why would God honor that? Jesus paid the price for our sins and
offers His righteousness to us, if that isn't accepted the price for sin will be paid
by the sinner, not the savior.

@fmf said
What I am putting to you is about you and other "born again" Christians and not about "God and God's Kingdom". Don't pretend it isn't about you.

I'm not pretending it isn't about me, as much as you are accusing me of it. It is all
due to the great grace and mercy God is showing us all. If it were about me I don't
deserve God's grace and mercy, even now I see how I come up short in loving God
and others. I have no standing before God without Jesus Christ, but with Jesus I
can come to God knowing that He loves me, as He does everyone else. There is
nothing about me that makes me righteous accept that which God has given to
me as a gift that He also offers all.

It isn't about us, none of us, it is about Jesus Christ, only your pride attempts to
put the spot light upon you and me.

@kellyjay said
Really, you think God must allow those into His Kingdom that do not walk with
Him here? Those who think it isn't important enough to seek God in their lives
should be allowed in, because they didn't obey God and that should be ignored
why? God created the whole universe and those that hate Him, should be allowed
in why? God holds all the universe together by the power of ...[text shortened]... ousness to us, if that isn't accepted the price for sin will be paid
by the sinner, not the savior.

So, you reckon you're wicked and evil and not righteous and I am wicked and evil and not righteous but you are not going to get tortured for eternity because you reckon you can think your way out of it ~ you don't even have to actually do anything. You insist that God has chosen you and that He is going to give you a supernatural gift of immortality. But one must be a member of your religion. Ah ha. This is your "humility"?

@fmf said
Oh well. Just toss all these meaningless non-Christians into a furnace and let them burn in agony forever. That's what they deserve after all. You, on the other hand, shall go to "Heaven" ~ despite being "evil and wicked" ~ because of your doubleplusgoodthink. And of course, you assure us your god figure has chosen you for this ~ you call it [or - more accurately - unilaterally declare yourself to be...] "born again".

No, it isn't about those who claim to be born again, it is about those who are born
again! Anyone can claim anything, being born again is due to God accepting us and
creating in us something new, where the old is passed away and a new creature is
due to the work of God, not the efforts of man.

@fmf said
I am saying what I am saying. Absolutely no need for you to paraphrase me.

Offer me the same treatment please!

@kellyjay said
It isn't about us, none of us, it is about Jesus Christ, only your pride attempts to
put the spot light upon you and me.

It IS about you KellyJay. It is about the ideology you peddle here. It's about you claiming that your self-aggrandizing, conceited, misanthropic ideology embodies "humility" when in fact it sets you apart from apparently subhuman thoughtcriminals who will have grotesque neverending violence visited upon them while it sends you to "heaven" for thinking certain things about yourself and about "Jesus".

@kellyjay said
No, it isn't about those who claim to be born again, it is about those who are born
again! Anyone can claim anything, being born again is due to God accepting us and
creating in us something new, where the old is passed away and a new creature is
due to the work of God, not the efforts of man.

You don't have to do anything. People not in your religious group declare things about themselves and then don't get tortured, or so you believe. Wordplay about "claim to be" and "are" does not execute a successful dodge.

@kellyjay said
No, it isn't about those who claim to be born again, it is about those who are born
again!

So you do not claim that you are a "born again" Christian?

@fmf said
So, you reckon you're wicked and evil and not righteous and I am wicked and evil and not righteous but you are not going to get tortured for eternity because you reckon you can think your way out of it ~ you don't even have to actually do anything. You insist that God has chosen you and that He is going to give you a supernatural gift of immortality. But one must be a member of your religion. Ah ha. This is your "humility"?

No, I'm completely unworthy of God's grace and mercy, there is NOTHING about
me that makes me better than anyone else. I dare say it is even worse than that,
that there are people who live today who have lived much better lives than I have
that are going to Hell! Because it isn't about me, it isn't about them, it isn't about
how good I've been compared to others, because we are all sinners, each and
everyone of us. God makes away to Him that is not dependent upon us, but on
Jesus Christ, Jesus being made sin for us! This then stops it from being about us,
and instead is now all about Jesus. Without Him we are lost and on our own and
will stand before a Holy God that will not accept sin, evil, or any wickedness.