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07 Jul 15
5 edits
Originally posted by divegeesterWe went through that twisting of yours and FMF's before.
What you said was that knowing that there is an eternal hell helps you to forgive those who mistreat you....Knowing people are going to suffer an eternity of unimaginable suffering helps you forgive them when they mistreat you. An astonishing revelation.
You twist the meaning of what I said.
And I previously dealt with those twists.
And I now think you are dishonest. You started a thread about Spectators in Hell pretending to want to know what some Christians think. Actually you started the thread just to tell some Christians what they think.
You don't want to know how some Christians think. You intend to dictate to them how they think.
False advertizing.
07 Jul 15
Originally posted by divegeesterOf course ... astonishing and stronger words apply to that. Very unChristlike to want anyone to suffer eternal torment.
What you said was that knowing that there is an eternal hell helps you to forgive those who mistreat you....Knowing people are going to suffer an eternity of unimaginable suffering helps you forgive them when they mistreat you. An astonishing revelation.
The problem with this is not the doctrine alone but that there are people that cannot conceive the magnitude of the word ETERNITY.
07 Jul 15
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeDepending on the topic if you do accept scripture as the Word of God, than it does not
Then why discuss anything ever with atheists in these forums? Atheists by definition do not accept scripture as an authority, so we will never have the same measure.
It's like me saying that if you do not accept 'The God Delusion' as an authority there is no point talking to you.
matter what our opinions, likes, and dislikes are, what scripture says it is the truth.
If we are going to discuss what scripture points out as the truth and you reject that the
scripture is the truth, what logic could apply? If you rejected the authority of scripture it
will not matter what it says, it was rejected before the discussion started. If scripture is
not the plumb line of truth for you, you will/can reject it out of hand.
If the topic of discussion is just a matter of opinion, than it does not matter what our
views on scripture are.
07 Jul 15
Originally posted by Rajk999After you die, and you've been given forgiveness describe that if you will.
Gods grace and mercy does have a limit. The Bible is crystal clear on that.
[b]Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
I can quote a dozen more like that. God does not tolerate continuous willful sin. God forgives and forgives and forgives, but there come ...[text shortened]... point where God says no more. The teachings of Christ and the Apostles are clear on that point.[/b]
07 Jul 15
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayI did NOT say that scripture isn't an authority. I said FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS DISCUSSION, LET's assume.......
Not sure why you think scripture isn't an authority, for me it is the bottom line as the Word of God. If you believe it is otherwise than I think we need not go on in this discussion due to we do not have the same measure on what we can agree is the authority on this or any other topic
Let me explain to you what I was trying to achieve.
As is obvious to anybody who has ever read anything on this Forum, the scriptures here are quoted by many different people to prove a whole lot of different (and often conflicting) things, as this very thread tries to demonstrate. So proving anything from scripture is fraught with difficulties, and because interpretations are very often vested with personal interests and emotions, these discussion mostly become, like you stated, insulting.
There is, however, another way to hold even spiritual discussions. This is to go to ( what I call) First Principles, which should be common to all who are able to reason, and also common to all religions.
I like to read and watch Science Fiction. One of my pet peeves is that far too often, the fictitious created world is NOT internally consistent. Here are two examples.
In the Matrix movies, the premiss is that human beings are deluded by thinking that the world in which they live is real, whilst it is actually simply a computer program. This is an intersting concept which one could explore further and develop. Unfortunately, there is a fatal flaw: it breaks the Law of Conservation of Energy. Human beings can never be used to generate power from their bodily metabolism, because the energy intake in their food will ALWAYS be more than their body can produce, because of the inefficiency of any energy conversion process, and the increase in Entropy. So anything that is based on this is "impossible".
Another example is Superman. I could accept a postulated super-being born on another planet who has powers vastly different from any human being. What I can NOT accept, is that he can catch Lana Lane falling fifteen stories with his arms outstretched without having her being cut into three pieces, or stopping a hurtling train without causing the most awful pile-up; all because that would contravene Newton's Laws of Motion (Action = Reaction).
(Aside: can you understand why my children never wanted to watch these movies with me?! If the Hollywood producers of these films had even an elementary science teacher on their staff, they would not have made these gaffes, but perhaps make their world more internally consistent A good example of such a world is Narnia, and the Lord of the Rings, by the way.)
If you now come to any teaching of the Bible, (or any religion, for that matter) that teaching should also be internally consistent with the world they describe. You should be able to argue from first principles that IF there were a god that says certain things, and IF the general message through the teachings of such a religion is such-and-such, then certain conclusions could logically be drawn.
(Again, btw, I have examined for example Buddhism like this and found some troubling evidence that, for me at least, and at this point of my studies, there are certain inconsistencies that I would need to resolve before accepting it.)
Perhaps this was rather long-winded, but it would explain why I am prepared to examine with an interested person, whether the doctrine of eternal punishment is consistent with overall Bible teaching, from a logical pov, rather than from quoting verses which "prove " this or the other. It would have to be somebody who knows the Bible really well, and is familiar with the entire thread running through Genesis to Revelation.
THAT is my only reason for saying let's leave the Bible texts out as proof, but OK as information and background. I think it could be an interesting and maybe even worthwhile discussion.
But I also accept that you may not want to do that, just as sonship has said he "choses not to do so."
07 Jul 15
2 edits
Originally posted by CalJustCan you describe what God's grace and forgiveness for us looks like after judgment day?
I did NOT say that scripture isn't an authority. I said FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS DISCUSSION, LET's assume.......
Let me explain to you what I was trying to achieve.
As is obvious to anybody who has ever read anything on this Forum, the scriptures here are quoted by many different people to prove a whole lot of different (and often conflicting) things, a ...[text shortened]... also accept that you may not want to do that, just as sonship has said he "choses not to do so."
Are there limitations, does it run out? Just how complete is it?
07 Jul 15
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayYes, I am blind to your nonexistent bible god. You are just wallowing in dreams of the afterlife which is going to be disappointing if you ever have some kind of afterlife, which is nothing but another fantasy. Racial wishful thinking. Any tool to use to overcome the fear of death. I don't fear death. Don't exactly welcome it either but not worried, I already lived longer than most and it looks like I have a few more decades left.
At least you prove my point on how pointless it is to discuss scripture with someone who
does not believe in it. If God does not open your eyes your blind to it.
Pete wrote a song about it:
'How do I know my youth is all spent, my get up and go has got up and went, but in spite of it all I sit here and grin when I think of the places my getup has been'🙂
07 Jul 15
Originally posted by Rajk999I'm asking you about God's grace and mercy after judgment day, you seem to know a lot
You are now claiming to know what is going to happen AFTER JUDGMENT DAY?
about it before judgment. If you cannot answer it I'll just not worry about your views in this
discussion.