JW Question

Originally posted by galveston75
[to robbie] That's the way I feel when I'm here in this mess talking to these guys.... They are in it just to argue over points we've discussed many times now and there are always the same group that are here to not learn, not to advance their knowledge in the Bible and have no desire to know God with simple things much less anything that has real substance to it. No reasoning ability at all.

You're right to call where you're at in this discussion "this mess". People are asking you point blank, pertinent, reasonable, on-topic questions here that are in direct and specific response to contentious and inconsistent things you have stated and you are very pointedly not coping with these enquiries, neither persuasively nor with much good grace. I don't think trying to talk out of the side of your mouth to robbie about the "[lack of] reasoning ability" of others is helping your case at all.

Originally posted by FMF
You're right to call where you're at in this discussion "this mess". People are asking you point blank, pertinent, reasonable, on-topic questions here that are in direct and specific response to contentious and inconsistent things you have stated and you are very pointedly not coping with these enquiries, neither persuasively nor with much good grace. I don't th ...[text shortened]... to robbie about the "[lack of] reasoning ability" of others is helping your case at all.

Well I have no idea why you consider this info I've taken the time to post here is contentious and inconsistent. We deal with this issue earthwide on a daily basis and either ones understand it with spiritual eyes and heart or they don't. Obviously most here don't.
The info I posted about the bloodless surgery options so far has fallen on def ears and blind eyes and not one person has commented on it and given even the slightest appreciation for this clean and God fearing option that the Witnesses have had a big hand in forcing doctors to bring to the fore for all of us.
It's clear that the only issue here is the stubborness and stupid hatred that most here have for the Witnesses.
We are honest and God fearing people who would never raise a gun to kill anyone and hate death as much as any god fearing person should be on this planet. But our allegense is to God and God only and will never give in to any humans whinning or spiritless stupid grumblings about what the Bible says and doesn't say.
God says clearly to ABSTAIN from blood. Go ahead and twist that word and play with it as you please and live with your flimzy excuses and keep your heads in the little boxes their jamed into...........

Originally posted by divegeester
So let me get this straight robbie, and you really need to take a big step back here...

It is ok to eat a residue of rarely cooked blood, but NOT ok to save a life with a blood transfusion?

whether its ok to eat a rare steak or to accept a blood transfusion is for your
conscience, we reserve the right of self determination, the issue is resolved as far as
we are concerned, crisis over.

Originally posted by galveston75
Well I have no idea why you consider this info I've taken the time to post here is contentious and inconsistent. We deal with this issue earthwide on a daily basis and either ones understand it with spiritual eyes and heart or they don't. Obviously most here don't.
The info I posted about the bloodless surgery options so far has fallen on def ears and ...[text shortened]... ith your flimzy excuses and keep your heads in the little boxes their jamed into...........

dude, the issue for us is resolved, we dont need to justify it to anyone, its a religious
belief, they need not agree with it nor accept it, it matters very little to us, we have a
right to do what we see fit with our own bodies, according to the dictates of our
conscience, if they have an issue with it, its their problem, crisis over.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
whether its ok to eat a rare steak or to accept a blood transfusion is for your
conscience, we reserve the right of self determination, the issue is resolved as far as
we are concerned, crisis over.

dude, the issue for us is resolved, we don't need to justify it to anyone, its a religious
belief, they need not agree with it nor accept it, it ...[text shortened]... the dictates of our
conscience, if they have an issue with it, its their problem, crisis over.

Yes but you try to convince other people that you are right, and make decisions for your children.

Given the known efficacy of blood transfusions and their usefulness in surgery, if a child of Jehovah's
Witnesses comes into hospital after (say) a car accident, and dies because the parent/s wont allow a
transfusion do we get to incarcerate the parent/s for gross negligence and manslaughter? (or whatever
applicable charges the law prescribes)

If you convince a person with diminished mental capacity that blood transfusions is wrong and they then die
because they refuse to have one when needed are you then guilty of a crime?


If your beliefs are not rationally justifiable, and have negative (potentially fatal) consequences, then while
if you are an otherwise sane adult then you are free to hold/act on those irrational beliefs even if it leads to
your own death.
Teaching and indoctrinating others into those beliefs is a different matter.

Refusing medical care on religious grounds on behalf of your children that leads to their deaths is murder as far
as I am concerned.

So it is not unreasonable for people to question those beliefs, and those that hold them.

EDIT: making response be for both of robbie's posts

Originally posted by galveston75
God says clearly to ABSTAIN from blood. Go ahead and twist that word and play with it as you please and live with your flimzy excuses and keep your heads in the little boxes their jamed into...........

Trying to belittle me isn't going to disguise the fact that you have now simply resorted to insulting people who have asked you reasonable questions about what you have claimed in a public forum. You talk about "God ... clearly [saying] to ABSTAIN from blood". So, was robbie corrobie right or wrong when he said that it's OK for a JW to eat the blood that you find in meat? He says "whether its ok to eat a rare steak or to accept a blood transfusion is for your conscience" and you say that it is God's express commandment to abstain from eating blood. Are you right or is robbie right? Because you are saying totally different things.

Originally posted by divegeester
Eating meet containing blood, whilst approving of the denying blood transfusions which allow people die, because of a JW extreme interpretation of an Old Covenant Hebrew law, is tough cognitive position to hold - so give him a break.

do you understand the concept of self determination, please note the term 'self', you
seem to be having a little trouble understanding it, for you claim seems to be stating
that we are responsible for other peoples deaths, when clearly that is not the case, as
self determination has nothing to do with other people, but by its very nature is
personal. Also you assertion that our stance is based solely on an old covenant
interpretation is also quite wrong, for its reiterated to the Christian congregation in the
book of acts, after the law covenant was annulled. you may find this interesting,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomy

Originally posted by googlefudge
Yes but you try to convince other people that you are right, and make decisions for your children.

Given the known efficacy of blood transfusions and their usefulness in surgery, if a child of Jehovah's
Witnesses comes into hospital after (say) a car accident, and dies because the parent/s wont allow a
transfusion do we get to incarcerate the pare ...[text shortened]... hose beliefs, and those that hold them.

EDIT: making response be for both of robbie's posts

I never try to convince anyone, its a waste of time, sorry if you are uninterested in my
beliefs i have a zillion better things to do than try to convince you, cya, secondly as far
as blood transfusions are concerned we have no jurisdiction over a minor (you might
want to research your topic before making such assertions to the contrary, prior to
using the keyboard)

the rest of you text belies your ignorance in this matter, no further comment is
therefore needed. There is of coarse nothing irrational about exercising ones
conscience nor in the right of claiming self determination, on the contrary, its an
informed decision.

Originally posted by FMF
Trying to belittle me isn't going to disguise the fact that you have now simply resorted to insulting people who have asked you reasonable questions about what you have claimed in a public forum. You talk about "God ... clearly [saying] to ABSTAIN from blood". So, was robbie corrobie right or wrong when he said that it's OK for a JW to eat the blood that you fin ...[text shortened]... blood. Are you right or is robbie right? Because you are saying totally different things.

it is Gods express commandment to abstain from blood, however its up to your
conscience whether you accept that or not or act upon it. You are attempting to
portray a discrepancy where none exists.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I never try to convince anyone, its a waste of time, sorry if you are uninterested in my
beliefs i have a zillion better things to do than try to convince you, cya, secondly as far
as blood transfusions are concerned we have no jurisdiction over a minor (you might
want to research your topic before making such assertions to the contrary, prior t ...[text shortened]... rest of you text belies your ignorance in this matter, no further comment is
therefore needed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7734480/Teenage-Jehovahs-Witness-refuses-blood-transfusion-and-dies.html

Indoctrination of a minor (reduced capacity due to not being an adult) results in needless death.

try again.


There is a reason that in the UK we override your jurisdiction in this regard.

Originally posted by googlefudge
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7734480/Teenage-Jehovahs-Witness-refuses-blood-transfusion-and-dies.html

Indoctrination of a minor (reduced capacity due to not being an adult) results in needless death.

try again.


There is a reason that in the UK we override your jurisdiction in this regard.

i dont need to try again, the matter for me is resolved, I need not comment on the
actions of others, its also their personal decision which i respect, regardless of whether
you think that's its correct, rational or anything else, He has the right of self
determination, regardless. End of story. Btw way you have gone from using the term
children to teenagers, its noted, but we knew that its the best you can do, not having
known anything about the law in this regard.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
it is Gods express commandment to abstain from blood, however its up to your
conscience whether you accept that or not or act upon it. You are attempting to
portray a discrepancy where none exists.

JWs can decline to obey Gods express commandment if their conscience tells them to? And they can remain JWs?

The "discrepancy" is a glaring one: galveston75 is saying JWs must obey Gods express commandment and you are saying it is optional for JWs in this case.

Originally posted by FMF
JWs can decline to obey Gods express commandment if their conscience tells them to? And they can remain JWs?

whether they remain JW's is an entirely different issue and cannot be commented upon
in general terms without looking at specifics. stealing is against Gods direct command,
yet no doubt many have sent mp3's to their friends mobiles without consent from the
publishers and unless it comes to light, who will know?

Originally posted by FMF
JWs can decline to obey Gods express commandment if their conscience tells them to? And they can remain JWs?

The "discrepancy" is a glaring one: galveston75 is saying JWs must obey Gods express commandment and you are saying it is optional for JWs in this case.

i never stated anything about it being optional, I stated it was a matter of conscience,
which, if you have a conscience aligned with scripture, you will want to bring it into
harmony with the perceived will of God, if not, you wont.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
whether they remain JW's is an entirely different issue and cannot be commented upon in general terms without looking at specifics.

It's not an entirely different issue, robbie. So, I'm asking, JWs can eat blood that's in meat and get involved in blood transfusions without having to leave the JW organisation?