@sonhouse saidWhy exactly does that matter what your feelings are towards religion when you are being asked mind over mindlessness when it comes to the complex nature of life? You got nothing so you CONTINUALLY bring religious faith into the topic, is that it?
@KellyJ
We dislike religions because they are ALL manmade, not a god in sight.
If there IS a god or gods, they are keeping hands off.
Other than that, your buddy uses science as a weapon to try to prove creationism is real which it isn't.
You must know the 7 day creation tale is just that, not only a myth but plagiarised as well from a much earlier 7 day creation tale from ancient Egypt.
Your dislike of religions should not stop you from being able to rationally come up with some reason to promote what you think is happening with life through mindlessness, if the only thing you got going for you is your dislike of religions, you have simply turned off your mind with nothing more than a philosophical reason denial, not a rational one. Again, that is a Spiritual Forum topic, the fact you cannot even give a rational answer for pushing mindlessness has turned this into a question of the Abiogensis/evolution of the gaps. Very hypocritical of some here since we don't know how Evolution did it, sounds eerily familiar.
Show me with science why designed life is not what we see! Show me the reasoning why designed life isn't what we see! Telling me you dislike religion is your answer, why is that, why don't you simply give a positive answer defending your position I'm starting to think you don't have one outside of your hate towards something you deny as true. Is hate your real answer?
@kellyjay saidmoonbus has answered this post eloquently and sensibly, and we await your sensible reply. I would only add two things; firstly, who says I dislike religion? This is a sweeping and baseless assumption, which you have no right to make. And as for science and 'logic', I suggest you reconsider your belief in talking snakes, your belief that the universe was made in six days, and that the earth is 6000 years old, before you bring either into the discussion.
More garbage, nothing to do with the topic just trash 🗑 talk. This has to be the only reason you reject mind over mindlessness nothing else ever comes from you, you are a broken record. No science, logic, only your dislike of religion, not a very sure foundation. I imagine lots of strong feelings nothing else.
@indonesia-phil saidmoonbus has not once answered my question like you dances around it. The normal operating answer that has typically been delivered here is to try and drag this into a Spiritual discussion best suited for that forum!
moonbus has answered this post eloquently and sensibly, and we await your sensible reply. I would only add two things; firstly, who says I dislike religion? This is a sweeping and baseless assumption, which you have no right to make. And as for science and 'logic', I suggest you reconsider your belief in talking snakes, your belief that the universe was made in six days, and that the earth is 6000 years old, before you bring either into the discussion.
What a shame too the minds supposedly focused on all things scientific cannot come up with anything positive to say about how strong the evidence is for mindlessness and what we see in life. They can only give answers that are totally spiritual, a materialistic worldview you think that question would be easy to answer since it is foundational to everything else.
moonbus has made what should be called totally baseless claims as he refuses or is unable to show why he disagrees on what part he did reference. He just disagrees and goes silent when asked for reasons.
Outside of attempting to change the subject none of you have offered anything.
@KellyJay
https://phys.org/news/2023-06-webb-crucial-carbon-molecule.html
Here is a crucial discovery by the James Webb scope showing how life can start from non living molecules.
THIS is REAL science, no agenda like your buddy who is an avowed creationist and any talk he gives will be biased in that direction, he could really care less about the science, ONLY in proving Goddidit which he failed to do.
You can SAY Goddidit but that is a far cry from an actual god showing up and telling us what is what.
@sonhouse saidIt isn't that the pieces cannot be found, as I pointed out earlier it is the arrangement of them that matters, the informational properties. You can have the ability to hit all the keys on a keyboard, but writing and reading both require a conscious mind that has the understanding to comprehend the arrangement as something other than gibberish, we see structure in life that we can identify what parts of it are related to what like deciphering a word or a picture to know. Finding a tiny piece of a puzzle doesn't mean that the puzzle on its own is going to arrange itself into a picture. It seems that the only thing you care about is attempting to disprove God, which too has nothing to do with mind or mindlessness.
@KellyJay
https://phys.org/news/2023-06-webb-crucial-carbon-molecule.html
Here is a crucial discovery by the James Webb scope showing how life can start from non living molecules.
THIS is REAL science, no agenda like your buddy who is an avowed creationist and any talk he gives will be biased in that direction, he could really care less about the science, ONLY in proving ...[text shortened]... ou can SAY Goddidit but that is a far cry from an actual god showing up and telling us what is what.
@KellyJay
It is only your opinion there has to be a mind behind life, you have zero in the way of proof. That molecule has been shown to have the ability to take simple molecular structures and put them together in more complex ways.
That is what that cation does, further the search for complex molecules.
I don't deny the possibility there is a god, it just seems very clear such a god is totally hands off humanity, otherwise we should be in trouble with such a god for screwing up the planet as badly as we are doing right now.
@sonhouse saidBRING OUT your justification for saying that there isn’t one, for crying out loud, why do you think that is true? The molecular structures of living things are not haphazardly put together, you can put all the pieces of even a jigsaw puzzle in a box and start shaking the box 📦 the puzzle pieces will not come together to form the picture on the box, unless designed to, otherwise that only happens when someone puts it together.
@KellyJay
It is only your opinion there has to be a mind behind life, you have zero in the way of proof. That molecule has been shown to have the ability to take simple molecular structures and put them together in more complex ways.
That is what that cation does, further the search for complex molecules.
I don't deny the possibility there is a god, it just seems very cle ...[text shortened]... should be in trouble with such a god for screwing up the planet as badly as we are doing right now.
You can put things together in an assortment of ways, we can read the genetic code to be able to categorize what life it is we are looking at and come up with possibilities as to relatives.
You think that happens only by mindlessness? WHY?
@KellyJay
Because the molecules have literally trillions upon quadrillions of possible combinations and the king of that is carbon, what you don't want to understand is the age of the universe allows the making of heavy elements needed for life and literally billions of years of mindless chemical experiments. I use the term experiments not because I believe in an experimenter but because we can consider molecular near misses and hits from random combinations of energy, water, and those chemicals just found by the JW scope going on over BILLIONS of years and every storm on a planet like Earth changes the mix slightly almost like an experimenter.
There are theories floating around saying our universe is only a small bubble in a much larger universe of universes similar in size to ours but in different dimensions where looking at it from the outside we would see little bubbles of foam, each bubble representing an entire universe like ours.
So the experimenting goes on for many billions of years and complexity results.
Of course you will deny all of that which is your prerogative but that doesn't make it true just because you happen to have a mythological religion engulfing your life.
My prediction:
Don't know how many more years go by before scientists put it together showing how, EXACTLY how life starts from non-life, I say you will refuse to believe it even if you see the experiments and reasoning directly in front of you.
Kind of like the very early astronomers, would show something not thought possible 4 or 5 hundred years ago, when telescopes first came about, they would show folks a binary star that to the naked eye looks like a single star, but the folks of the time went, no way that is two stars together, you must have something wrong with your telescope, totally ignoring the fact they are looking at what we now know as binary stars, that would be you in forty years or whatever, when they figure it out how life comes from non life.
@sonhouse saidThe trouble with what you are saying is that it is only when all of the ducks are in a roll do you even get a shot at rolling the life dice to move towards life from non-life and even on a successful hit, subsequent rolls must also follow without which any gains are lost. This isn't a video game where all the good we always get to keep and eventually we will win every time. Timing, it must be done properly where it can with what is available, not time, if the material isn't there time does not help, same with the environment.
@KellyJay
Because the molecules have literally trillions upon quadrillions of possible combinations and the king of that is carbon, what you don't want to understand is the age of the universe allows the making of heavy elements needed for life and literally billions of years of mindless chemical experiments. I use the term experiments not because I believe in an experiment ...[text shortened]... that would be you in forty years or whatever, when they figure it out how life comes from non life.
The multiverse theory has zero to do with our universe, it has the same issues how and why did it start, and what are the mechanisms for that thing? You know when you read something a mind put that information there, when you see a picture that it represents something, you know that is the main point, so how is it you deny a mind for mindlessness when all of your experiences tell you instructional information doesn't just occur without intent, requiring a mind? A mythological multiverse generator is just that too unless you can do more than say it is possible.
Your faith in our abilities is big, but so far, we are learning more about how hard creating life is than being able to create it from non-life.
@KellyJay
You fail to understand the implications of the James Webb scope discovery.
You also fail to understand the incredible age of the universe, which you probably don't believe anyway.
In literally BILLIONS of years there are countless combinations of chemicals reacting to energy and water, the James Webb work has shown that molecule may be the key to understanding how molecules got steadily more and more complex just by the mixing and remixing quadrillions of times.
You just can't wrap your head around those possiblities.
BTW, I did NOT say god does not exist.
I SAID such a god is TOTALLY hands off if it exists at all.
The way we treat the planet is a good indication of the lack of godly interference.
If some god or other made Earth, I don't see why it would not be PISSED at how we are fukking it up and the lack of any godly interference is a huge hint if there is a god it doesn't give a rats ass about Earth or humans.
If I was such a god I would be thoroughly pisssed enough to kick ass.
Tell me, you see anything like that?
I see 1 year old infants with cancer, dying way too soon but the religious set just goes, well god has plans for him.
Right, Just another rationale, one rationale after another for thousands of years which has the effect of programming people to continue to be duped by these modern man made TOTALLY man made religions like Christianity.
I also see you made no comment about the 7 day creation myth thousands of years older than Christianity but that means nothing to you.
@sonhouse saidIt does not matter how old the universe is, why can't you get your mind wrapped around that? You cannot work out a cause without knowing all of the reasons that matter, you cannot build something without having all of the parts required, and you cannot know up from down without a reference point. The only point in my question is mind or mindlessness when we can read the code identifying what creature the genetic code belongs to nothing about that suggests mindlessness. Seeing all of the pieces scattered throughout the universe does not add to this discussion, it only shows that there are pieces scattered throughout the universe.
@KellyJay
You fail to understand the implications of the James Webb scope discovery.
You also fail to understand the incredible age of the universe, which you probably don't believe anyway.
In literally BILLIONS of years there are countless combinations of chemicals reacting to energy and water, the James Webb work has shown that molecule may be the key to understanding h ...[text shortened]... ut the 7 day creation myth thousands of years older than Christianity but that means nothing to you.
You can have a puzzle in your home with the pieces scattered throughout your home that does not mean the puzzle on its own will put itself together. If building a house you don't put the roof together first, there is an order, in Chemistry the timing is important, screw it up, you have to start over with new material, back to step one.
Godly interference is a Spiritual topic of discussion, everyone seems to want to tell me that is all I'm trying to do while it's everyone here beside me that keeps bringing up spiritual topics. I suggest you go to the Spiritual forum check out the why God allows evil thread and watch the link. You'll get your answers on why God is pissed and lets this world go on like it is.
@sonhouse saidYes, I agree if it is 8 K there wouldn't be enough time, but I cannot prove how much time there has been, to either a biblical scholar or anyone else so I don't worry about it. If the processes under discussion cannot be done at any time regardless of how much why would time matter? Natural experiments require specific things I have cited, there is zero opportunity of success without a host of things being all together at the right time, place, in a life-friendly environment, all of the necessary ingredients, all connecting in the right places at the right time, before moving to step two, three, four and so on. Each set of the whole process requires plenty of help, and every subsequent step is even more delicate. I believe in a young earth, I have admitted that to you over and over, but as I said, even an old universe doesn't help you.
@KellyJay
You can't just make an assertion it doesn't matter how old the universe is because if it was only 8000 years old there would not be enough time for the natural experiments to take place.
You are unable to admit the universe is actually billions of years old.
@KellyJay
It helps ME plenty. You are so biased you cannot grasp the concept of a billion years.
When you look at rocks folded in half and such and magnetic readings of the mid Atlantic split, magma coming up slowly and the further you get from the split, there is a linear record of the magnetic field so you can track how long the magma has been spreading out from the split. But I assume you would not believe such evidence either, would you? When they see a blob of magma ooze out cool off and get shoved left or right, depending on which side of the big crack you are on, they can measure the flow and see for hundreds of miles the magnetic recordings go like a thousand mile long magnetic tape, remember tape🙂, I LOVED getting my 4 channel Teac 10 inch reel 15IPS recorder. A bit different now with my Tascam 16-18 I/O, Studio 1 DAW and some decent mikes where you can record to your hearts content, gigabyte after gigabyte whereas with my old Teac, you had to be careful with your tape, they were expense for one thing and the tape heads had to be cleaned every now and again and such, what a different musical world it is now.
My guess is a thousand times the number of amateur musicians do their thing on social media, whatever wets their whistle, what is it now, Tik Tok or is that out now that China seems to be hacking into it.
I hope the site I use, Soundcloud isn't tapped like that. I just finished track # 285, a tribute to my best friend from several decades ago, George Winston, we both lived in Venice Beach back in the early 70's and have been really good friends ever since and I was devastated when I heard he died. So I have written several tunes honoring George. His record company is Dancing Cat records and I send him my work sometimes. So I was thinking about a brilliant guitarist from that era, George Cromarty, and just out of the blue I wrote a solo guitar piece kind of in his style, I emailed it to George and he replied ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL! !! just like that.
Unbeknownst to me, George Winston was in a project to put out a 5 CD set of the works of George Cromarty! Talk about coincidence. I know, you will say, see, proof of god🙂 Anyway, George asked his engineers to find a place on that CD set which I think was or is 'Dust to Digital' and they did. But now I don't know the status of that project, if it was finished or what, also don't know what has happened to Dancing Cat records either. I sent an email to George's address but got no reply so they must have closed it. George always answered me.
God, I miss him so much, such a brilliant musician and humble as a human can get.
Any way, if you want to hear some guitar stuff, take a listen to my soundcloud, I think you still have the link. My bucket list includes getting up to 500 tracks on Soundcloud of my own music, more than halfway there now🙂
It has been about 5 years of work, sometimes two new tunes a day to get this far, but of course I am only an instrumentalist, sort of half a gift I guess since I have a hole in my brain where song lyrics go🙂 Actually, there was a time about 30 years ago now that my wife Susan, our dear friend Julie Moscowits, a great guitarist in her own right formed a trio and we actually wrote a song but Julie had a divorce thing going and we had to split up but it was fun while it lasted.
Now she is in San Jose happy as a clam teaching grade school band🙂
I'll stop now, once I get started I will write a whole essay before I notice 5 hours has passed🙂
@sonhouse saidThere is nothing magical about a billion years that can overcome the odds of something that is virtually zero.
@KellyJay
It helps ME plenty. You are so biased you cannot grasp the concept of a billion years.
When you look at rocks folded in half and such and magnetic readings of the mid Atlantic split, magma coming up slowly and the further you get from the split, there is a linear record of the magnetic field so you can track how long the magma has been spreading out from the spli ...[text shortened]... )
I'll stop now, once I get started I will write a whole essay before I notice 5 hours has passed🙂
On the music writing topic, I did help write a song a friend of mine put together for me. I don't know if you ever read the poem I wrote about our daughter Ramie's passing, it is been on my home page here since day one. The video is on youtube, more of a personal thing, I always wanted the poem put to music and he did it for me. He added a video too, some of it he took from free sources, so people I don't know, only those that know me I feel the need to say that too, there was very little of Ramie to draw on. She passed long before our phones had cameras so there were not too many pictures of her. Did get a few minutes of old VHS footage that made it into the video.