Memo

Originally posted by divegeester
Hardly worth mentioning as an anecdote then was it?

I mean, I know of millions of people who have committed suicide and I'm pretty sure that thousands of them would be within a few places removed from me personally. Perhaps I should mention them all in order to underline my opinion that suicide is not an insult to anyone.

Western culture has never been completely indifferent toward those who take their own lives. Attitudes and beliefs concerning suicide have been complex and varied over the centuries. Some suicides were considered heroes, but mostly suicide was considered an offense against God, an insult to the state, or a particularly painful gesture toward those left behind after an unexplained death. Yet, considerable tolerance toward suicide is evident in ancient times when death was more frequently encountered in everyday experience than in modern times. Nevertheless, suicide was punished as a criminal act in many cultures for centuries before becoming a medical-psychological issue in our current society and culture.

The contest between reason and passion

Since ancient Greece, suicide was not accepted, though most cases were not explicitly blamed for having committed a criminal act. Since the fourth century BCE, suicides usually were denied burial or traditional pre-burial preparation or cremation and were considered to have committed a greviously antisocial act. In Athens, for instance, the hand of a suicide was cut off and buried away from the rest of the body (Manson, 1899). Only suicides in which it was possible to find sufficient reason for self-destruction were deemed comprehensible; such reasons might include heroism, love-rejection, or serious and painful illness. Other suicides were considered to be unjustified and were punished; examples include soldiers who had deserted or criminals avoiding punishment or prison. The standard of “understanding” was – and largely still is – considered the key to assessing suicide as a justified action. Even nowadays, the suicide of a young healthy person is likely not to be “understood,” whereas that of an elderly person with a terminal illness may seem more reasonable.

http://ebooks.cambridge.org/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9781139519502&cid=CBO9781139519502A008&tabName=Chapter&imageExtract=

It appears that traditionally in the West suicide has been viewed as both noble and morally reprehensible, an affront to God and society and punishable. I would like to ask you if you were aware of these values prior to your attack on Bobs similarly held beliefs?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
It appears that traditionally in the West suicide has been viewed as both noble and morally reprehensible, an affront to God and society and punishable.

When, approximately speaking, did "Western Culture" gain its grasp upon the problem of mental illness that allows "the West" to have the understanding of suicide that it does today? Can suicide resulting from mental illness still be characterized as "morally reprehensible" in your view?

Originally posted by FMF
What about you and robbie? You both use basically the same avatar and when you dodge a post of mine by typing "Tweedledum and Tweedledee", he posts an approving smiley. Is that also a case of "Tweedledum and Tweedledee"? 😉

suicide is a very hard topic to talk about, i would imagine every one on here knows someone who has committed suicide or attempted to. attempted suicide used to be illegal in the uk, the punishment was death penalty, got to love the irony.
Mental illness is the most likely cause, although guilt can play a huge part, unable to live after committing a murder, the prison suicide rate is high.
and of course illness, if the suffering gets too bad, why not end it?
Then we have suicide bombers etc, gladly giving their lives in return for a promised paradise, brain washed, mental illness, or actually the truth? the last part sounds idiotic but no one actually knows what happens when we die.
that's why religion is called faith, you must have total faith without any proof, i personally am not a believer, i will look daft on judgement day if i am wrong though.
people who commit suicide are victims to me, no one will know for sure why any one does it, mental illness? gods plan? guilt? painful illness?
They should not be judged unless we know what their circumstances are

Originally posted by FMF
When, approximately speaking, did "Western Culture" gain its grasp upon the problem of mental illness that allows "the West" to have the understanding of suicide that it does today? Can suicide resulting from mental illness still be characterized as "morally reprehensible" in your view?

If you want to find out 'when', I suggest that you do you own research as i am doing now.

I have no view of suicide in moral terms either as the consequence of a mental illness or any other causation. The issue for me is not one of morality but of understanding.

It seems clear that one must make the decision to end ones life and carry it out. To what extent ones mental state of affairs plays in this and how it is deemed to mitigate personal responsibility I cannot say and its futile to attempt to draw any broad generalizations without knowing any specific details. I repeat this again so that you do not regurgitate the same question again.

I have no view of suicide in moral terms either as the consequence of a mental illness or any other causation. The issue for me is not one of morality but of understanding.

Originally posted by GHOST HUNTER
They should not be judged unless we know what their circumstances are

In what circumstances would you judge them?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I have no view of suicide in moral terms either as the consequence of a mental illness or any other causation. The issue for me is not one of morality but of understanding.

So what bearing does the fact that there were people in the past who had no understanding of mental illness as we understand it now ~ and who thought suicide was morally reprehensible ~ have upon our understanding of suicide in the C21st?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
To what extent ones mental state of affairs plays in this and how it is deemed to mitigate personal responsibility I cannot say and its futile to attempt to draw any broad generalizations without knowing any specific details.

Do you more or less accept the view that something in the region of 9 out of 10 suicides are caused by mental illness?

Originally posted by FMF
In what circumstances [b]would you judge them?[/b]

personally, i doubt i would ever have enough facts to judge them
it's sad for every one involved, the victims and the ones they leave behind

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
The point is of course, such an occurrence can happen in 'any' family and the question can easily be our own. Experience has taught me that suicidal thought 'can' be present in people who give no outward sign what they are going through internally. We might like to distance ourselves from suicide and think it happens to people far removed from ourselves, but despair or mental health issues can happen to anyone.

Well said.

Originally posted by FMF
Do you more or less accept the view that something in the region of 9 out of 10 suicides are caused by mental illness?

where did you get the "fact" that 9/10 of suicides are due to a mental illness?
really curious, looks a made up stat to me.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Western culture has never been completely indifferent toward those who take their own lives. Attitudes and beliefs concerning suicide have been complex and varied over the centuries. Some suicides were considered heroes, but mostly suicide was considered [b]an offense against God, an insult to the state, or a particularly painful gesture toward those ...[text shortened]... o ask you if you were aware of these values prior to your attack on Bobs similarly held beliefs?

Thanks for this in depth historical perspective.

Originally posted by FMF
Do you more or less accept the view that something in the region of 9 out of 10 suicides are caused by mental illness?

Actually the data that I am reading suggests that around 30 percent of people who commit suicide were receiving treatment for mental illness at the time.

A conservatively estimated 31.3% of individuals who died by suicide were receiving mental health treatment at the time of their death (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2012)

http://ebooks.cambridge.org/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9781139519502&cid=CBO9781139519502A011&tabName=Chapter&imageExtract=

I have no idea where you got your statistics from but even if they were not made up I doubt that it can be argued successfully that mental health issues in themselves caused suicide, because a predisposition is not the same as a causation and infact its a rather convenient and simplistic approach to take.

Originally posted by GHOST HUNTER
where did you get the "fact" that 9/10 of suicides are due to a mental illness?
really curious, looks a made up stat to me.

Yes to me also.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Thanks for this in depth historical perspective.

Its a great article, detailed enough and concise enough to be readily assimilated.

Originally posted by GHOST HUNTER
where did you get the "fact" that 9/10 of suicides are due to a mental illness?
really curious, looks a made up stat to me.

As a matter of interest, if it were "4/10 suicides are due to a mental illness", would that also look like a made up statistic to you?