What's the point of heaven?

Originally posted by rwingett
If the kingdom is expected imminently, but doesn't materialize, uncomfortable questions start being asked. But if you can project the second coming onto some nebulous future date, enthusiasm can be maintained indefinitely. It's always just around the corner, but never seems to get here for some reason.

That is what happened with the early proto-Christia ...[text shortened]... it became evident that wasn't going to happen, it got switched to a future, otherworldly event.

How do you know they were expecting the kingdom imminently? The disciples had asked Jesus about what the signs of the times would be at the end of the world when the kingdom would be established. What makes you think they saw the kingdom and the return of Jesus as eminent when so many other events needed to take place first?

Originally posted by josephw
How do you know they were expecting the kingdom imminently? The disciples had asked Jesus about what the signs of the times would be at the end of the world when the kingdom would be established. What makes you think they saw the kingdom and the return of Jesus as eminent when so many other events needed to take place first?

Well, there are certain passages that say so explicitly:

Matthew 16:28
Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Originally posted by rwingett
Well, there are certain passages that say so explicitly:

Matthew 16:28
Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Ya, that's a tricky one for sure. It's been debated about what that means forever.

Still, prophetically speaking, the return of Jesus and Him establishing the kingdom on earth has a long way to go. Many things have to come to pass first. The disciples knew that as does any other that knows the scriptures. The ignorant masses not withstanding.

I still think you mixed two events as being considered "eminent" by the early church together. I don't believe the disciples thought Jesus would return eminently. They knew too many other events had to happen first, although those events could have occurred rapidly enough.

What was considered eminent was the "rapture" of the church, which is an entirely different entity from Israel. The kingdom, and all prophetic events associated with it, is in direct relation to the nation Israel.

The Church, which is Christ's Body, is not Israel. The Church's purpose and destiny is heavenward, while the kingdom and Israel are earthbound, so to speak.

The "catching away" of the Church has been considered "eminent" since the first century because this present dispensation is parenthetical and unprophesied of, and will close when the "fulness of the Gentiles be come in" at the end of the age of grace.

Then God will resume the prophetic timetable with Israel and the kingdom.

Originally posted by josephw
Don't stop there stells. Tell me what YOU think is the "nature of eternity". And while you're at it tell how you know it.

you dont seem to be grasping just how long eternity is. you can list stuff to do to keep busy, what you gonna do when youve ran out of stuff..you will still have eternity stretching out before you.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
you dont seem to be grasping just how long eternity is. you can list stuff to do to keep busy, what you gonna do when youve ran out of stuff..you will still have eternity stretching out before you.

Well, I don't know how you can tell whether or not I "grasp" how long eternity is.

I won't need to look for things to do. God will take care of that.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
you dont seem to be grasping just how long eternity is. you can list stuff to do to keep busy, what you gonna do when youve ran out of stuff..you will still have eternity stretching out before you.

Words cannot express the indescribable glory of heaven. Paul wrote: "Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, and which have not entered the heart of man, all that God has prepared for those who love Him" (I Corinthians 2:9)

Originally posted by josephw
Well, I don't know how you can tell whether or not I "grasp" how long eternity is.

I won't need to look for things to do. God will take care of that.

if you think there are enough things to do to keep entertained, then you do not understand how long eternity is.

the only possible way god could keep you entertained is it wipe your memory every so often. or remove the part of the human brain that craves new experience.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Words cannot express the indescribable glory of heaven. Paul wrote: "Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, and which have not entered the heart of man, all that God has prepared for those who love Him" (I Corinthians 2:9)

you can explore tat indescribable glory until you have looked at each individual molecule of it a billion times.......you would still have an eternity left...what are you going to do then?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
you can explore tat indescribable glory until you have looked at each individual molecule of it a billion times.......you would still have an eternity left...what are you going to do then?

stellspalfie, please grasp the fact that there are no wrist watches or alarm clocks or the present limitation of time in eternity.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
stellspalfie, please grasp the fact that there are no wrist watches or alarm clocks or the present limitation of time in eternity.

i agree. watches would be pointless. i also agree that time would have non of its current limitations........doesnt change the fact that you would have a finite amount of things to do and an infinite time left after you had done them over and over.

the only hope you have is that god lobotomises you, so you will be happy to just experience the same things over and over and over again.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
i agree. watches would be pointless. i also agree that time would have non of its current limitations........doesnt change the fact that you would have a finite amount of things to do and an infinite time left after you had done them over and over.

the only hope you have is that god lobotomises you, so you will be happy to just experience the same things over and over and over again.

About God's Omniscience and Unfailing Love for and desire to share His Perfect Happiness with His Royal Family: Paul wrote: "Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, and which have not entered the heart of man, all that God has prepared for those who love Him" (I Corinthians 2:9) He knew from eternity past precisely what would please us.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
About God's Omniscience and Unfailing Love for and desire to share His Perfect Happiness with His Royal Family: Paul wrote: "Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, and which have not entered the heart of man, all that God has prepared for those who love Him" (I Corinthians 2:9) He knew from eternity past precisely what would please us.

and you will be happy doing the same things over and over again for eternity....you will never crave new experiences?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
the only possible way god could keep you entertained is it wipe your memory every so often. or remove the part of the human brain that craves new experience.

I doubt that anyone can truly grasp how long eternity is.
I also feel compelled to point out that the human brain does not have an infinite storage capacity, so the human brain would not have the problem you envisage.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
and you will be happy doing the same things over and over again for eternity....you will never crave new experiences?

Have you considered the possibility of an infinite number of new experiences?

You could try counting the irrational numbers between zero and one. 🙂

Originally posted by twhitehead
If you cannot remember you past lives, are you really the same person? What emotional connection do you have to those other entities that you reincarnated from or will reincarnate to?

I'd say you are neither the same person, nor a person that would have any connection whatsoever with any previous entities that you reincarnated from or to. However the difference between the standard idea of reincarnation (as I understand it), and the idea that Zahlanzi put forward is that as opposed to just a long chain of rebirths with no means to reflect on those previous to or after it, one could reflect in so-called heaven before asking to be re-incarnated again. It makes the notion of eternal life slightly more palatable to me because in a sense you are able to reset your memory as many times as you wish.