What's the point of heaven?

I'm sure we've all heard the theist challenge: "what's the point of living if there is no God?"*. The idea being that if there is no afterlife, if our consciousness just vanishes and we all cease to be, then what purpose is there to life. Implicit or directly we are asked why don't we just go round stealing, killing, ... people because nothing really matters in the end does it!???

But let me turn this whole question on its head for a moment ... what is the point of an afterlife? what purpose does it serve? We exist forever and ever and ever ... loving God, talking to other "ex-dead" people, watching people who are burning in hellReveal Hidden Content

, and so on ..

But for what!? What's the point?? What grand purpose is served by us all living forever and being happy (or being tormented if you believe that kind of thing)?

Is it to glorify "God"? Well if so, what's the point of that then!??






------------------------------------------
* The trigger for this question being:
http://www.redhotchess.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=161886&page=1#post_3321853

Originally posted by Agerg
I'm sure we've all heard the theist challenge: "what's the point of living if there is no God?"*. The idea being that if there is no afterlife, if our consciousness just vanishes and we all cease to be, then what purpose is there to life. Implicit or directly we are asked why don't we just go round stealing, killing, ... people because nothing really matters i ...[text shortened]... ion being:
http://www.redhotchess.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=161886&page=1#post_3321853

"What's the point of heaven?

Original post by Standard member

Agerg, 04 Dec '14 13:59"

And the alternative?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"What's the point of heaven?

Original post by Standard member

Agerg, 04 Dec '14 13:59"

And the alternative?

"And the alternative?"

would browsing through the catalogue of alternatives change the 'point' of heaven???

Originally posted by Agerg
I'm sure we've all heard the theist challenge: "what's the point of living if there is no God?"*. The idea being that if there is no afterlife, if our consciousness just vanishes and we all cease to be, then what purpose is there to life. Implicit or directly we are asked why don't we just go round stealing, killing, ... people because nothing really matters i ...[text shortened]... ion being:
http://www.redhotchess.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=161886&page=1#post_3321853

It makes complete sense but requires a different approach.

Aristotle said that happiness is the one good that we pursue for its own sake. Can you think of any alternative? Even an altruistic existence has to deliver happiness (self-respect, self-esteem, etc.) to the actor, or it will not be pursued.

But it is not our happiness that matters. Heaven isn't our creation, it's God's creation. So God making God as happy as possible is the purpose of heaven. And God likes uncertain outcomes otherwise it's no fun.

This has implications. Like sending his son (or himself, oddly) to redeem us. Oh, and a flood before that. Kind of like erasing the blackboard. First wiping out most of the life, second, atonement for our sin.

The whole story hinges on God seeking happiness. And of all the planets and species in the world, it's ours that matters.

Originally posted by JS357
It makes complete sense but requires a different approach.

Aristotle said that happiness is the one good that we pursue for its own sake. Can you think of any alternative? Even an altruistic existence has to deliver happiness (self-respect, self-esteem, etc.) to the actor, or it will not be pursued.

But it is not our happiness that matters. Heaven isn' ...[text shortened]... God seeking happiness. And of all the planets and species in the world, it's ours that matters.

"The whole story hinges on God seeking happiness. And of all the planets and species in the world, it's ours that matters." JS, God has always been, still is and always will be "happiness" personified. He desires to share it with you and me.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"The whole story hinges on God seeking happiness. And of all the planets and species in the world, it's ours that matters." JS, God has always been, still is and always will be "happiness" personified. He desires to share it with you and me.

Well then, God has desires while happy.

Originally posted by JS357
Well then, God has desires while happy.

His sole desire since eternity past is that mankind will accept His Grace Gift of Salvation by faith alone in Christ alone.

Originally posted by JS357
It makes complete sense but requires a different approach.

Aristotle said that happiness is the one good that we pursue for its own sake. Can you think of any alternative? Even an altruistic existence has to deliver happiness (self-respect, self-esteem, etc.) to the actor, or it will not be pursued.

But it is not our happiness that matters. Heaven isn' ...[text shortened]... God seeking happiness. And of all the planets and species in the world, it's ours that matters.

Not that I wanted to raise any challenge with this response (I detected an element of tongue-in-cheek), but your statement about altruism reminds me of the statement that true altruism is not tenable. If we anticipated we would derive no self-respect, warm-fuzzy-feeling, etc... from performing some act positively affecting only others (in such way that others can measure), would we actually perform that act? (I suppose with more work someone could make that topic into a thread in its own right ...)

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"The whole story hinges on God seeking happiness. And of all the planets and species in the world, it's ours that matters." JS, God has always been, still is and always will be "happiness" personified. He desires to share it with you and me.

and what's the point of that then? ... in the grand scheme of things, why is it so important that "God" gets his way!??

Originally posted by Agerg
and what's the point of that then? ... in the grand scheme of things, why is it so important that "God" gets his way!??

If god doesn't get his way he stomps his feet.

What do you think thunder is? 🙄

Seriously though - good question - they wont be able to
answer this without going round and round in circles!

GB will give his usual cut n paste.
Pigswill will give us lengthy quotes.
Suzi will hate you for persecuting her.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
If god doesn't get his way he stomps his feet.

What do you think thunder is? 🙄

Seriously though - good question - they wont be able to
answer this without going round and round in circles!

GB will give his usual cut n paste.
Pigswill will give us lengthy quotes.
Suzi will hate you for persecuting her.

Well {{jay,GS}will,sonship} won't because a good few years ago we agreed never to speak to each other again.
GrampyBobby? ... meh! 😵

And as for Suzianne, she seems to hate all atheists at the moment ... which is a shame because when she isn't just trying to stomp on us because of ... "just because", she is otherwise well worth engaging with.

Originally posted by Agerg
I'm sure we've all heard the theist challenge: "what's the point of living if there is no God?"*. The idea being that if there is no afterlife, if our consciousness just vanishes and we all cease to be, then what purpose is there to life. Implicit or directly we are asked why don't we just go round stealing, killing, ... people because nothing really matters i ...[text shortened]... ion being:
http://www.redhotchess.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=161886&page=1#post_3321853

if eternity of anything might eventually become torture, is non-existence preferable?


if conscious, you can at least have an impact on whatever the afterlife is. you can petition god to be reborn as a member of a catlike alien race that just hunts in an alien jungle all day. you can petition god to create the Avatar world complete with blue cats and floating mountains and huge trees. or the other avatar world where you can bend the elements through your awesome kung fu.


people keep saying afterlife is an eternity of bliss, but think about it. can't god reincarnate you if you are no longer happy? if you want a challenge?

talking from the opposite point of view, is an eternity of torture in hell any fair for what you did in an infinitesimally small period of time? what would be the point of it anyway?


i submit the idea that the afterlife will be tailored to each individually. some will want to stay near god, some will want to do kungfu in an alien world.

Originally posted by Agerg"
Not that I wanted to raise any challenge with this response (I detected an element of tongue-in-cheek), but your statement about altruism reminds me of the statement that true altruism is not tenable. If we anticipated we would derive no self-respect, warm-fuzzy-feeling, etc... from performing some act positively affecting only others (in such way that others ...[text shortened]... act? (I suppose with more work someone could make that topic into a thread in its own right ...)

Yes, "There are no truly altruistic acts" is a position that every bright young person stumbles across and eventually puts in their quiver to challenge the next generation of bright young people.

"What is the point of heaven?" Indeed.

Whatever is offered as the point of heaven, the question can be asked, what is the point of that? This is why I suggest that whatever stands up to questioning, must be valued as the point must be for itself and not as a means to another end. Aristotle seemed to know there has to be something we seek for the having it it, and he thought it was happiness. I find it hard to rebut.

The "no true altruism" position is similar, in that a truly altruistic act would be valued for its own sake and not because it made the actor happier. It seems impossible to ignore that motivation.

So we might as well just say that the point of being in heaven is to be happy. Although some Christians who don't want to admit this seem to focus on the negative -- the point of being in heaven is that the alternative is decidedly unhappy. I think a much more cheerful approach to Christianity would benefit those followers.

Originally posted by Agerg
and what's the point of that then? ... in the grand scheme of things, why is it so important that "God" gets his way!??

For your eternal benefit which hinges on your volition; the Sovereignty of God and Agerg's free will co-exist in time.

Originally posted by Agerg
I'm sure we've all heard the theist challenge: "what's the point of living if there is no God?"*. The idea being that if there is no afterlife, if our consciousness just vanishes and we all cease to be, then what purpose is there to life. Implicit or directly we are asked why don't we just go round stealing, killing, ... people because nothing really matters i ...[text shortened]... ion being:
http://www.redhotchess.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=161886&page=1#post_3321853

It is to explain away the fact that the kingdom didn't come in their lifetime, as the very first Christians widely expected. When it became apparent that wasn't going to happen, in order to keep enthusiasm from flagging, the emphasis was shifted from this world toward the next, with Jesus expected to make his comeback tour at some indeterminate, but distant, future date. As you can see, all the additional waiting has not inspired him to make an encore.