Suzanne’s Post, Fact, Fiction, Christian? Let’s Come Together!

@ghost-of-a-duke said
@KellyJay

End of the day Kelly you are missing Jesus's key teachings of grace, forgiveness and redemption.

"Grace and forgiveness unleash the power of God that re-makes humans. That is the Way of Jesus, the Way of the Cross. Our faith teaches that whatever has been done by any human being in history, today, and in the future has been absorbed by the Cross and forgiven." (Scot McKnight).

No, actually Jesus is the one of the best descriptions of this! We are all condemned sinners outside of Christ, we are condemned already, except in the Lord, it is through God’s righteousness, love, goodness, holiness, due to God’s justice all sin has been dealt with. Every single thought and deed each sinful thing done is taken on by Christ or not, so justice is always served!

It was through God’s righteousness and justice we were we redeemed, as God acted on our behalf. We were clearly seen as we are and on the cross the wrath of God was satisfied, He didn’t ignore or overlook our sins! Jesus became our redemption, guilt is never ignored.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
@KellyJay

End of the day Kelly you are missing Jesus's key teachings of grace, forgiveness and redemption.

"Grace and forgiveness unleash the power of God that re-makes humans. That is the Way of Jesus, the Way of the Cross. Our faith teaches that whatever has been done by any human being in history, today, and in the future has been absorbed by the Cross and forgiven." (Scot McKnight).

See my last

@kellyjay said
No, actually Jesus is the one of the best descriptions of this! We are all condemned sinners outside of Christ, we are condemned already, except in the Lord, it is through God’s righteousness, love, goodness, holiness, due to God’s justice all sin has been dealt with. Every single thought and deed each sinful thing done is taken on by Christ or not, so justice is always ser ...[text shortened]... isfied, He didn’t ignore or overlook our sins! Jesus became our redemption, guilt is never ignored.

Whoosh

@kellyjay said
See my last

See my last.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
No, because as I stated, one innocent person being executed in error is one person too many.

Clearly you think otherwise.

Sometimes murderers and rapists who are released from prison commit further murders and rapes.
No executed prisoner has ever committed another crime.

@the-gravedigger said
Sometimes murderers and rapists who are released from prison commit further murders and rapes.
No executed prisoner has ever committed another crime.

Sure, and some go on to do positive things. - I think of, for example, that chap who tackled that terrorist a few years ago on the bridge, who had killed a couple of people at a conference and was wearing what they believed to be a bomb. The chap who tackled him (along with a couple of others) was a convicted murderer himself who had served his time and been released from prison.

In a Christian context, God keeps the door open for a human to turn their life around and be born again in the spirit. An executed person can't do that, come to repent for their sins.

Jesus answered, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” (Luke 5:31)

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Sure, and some go on to do positive things. - I think of, for example, that chap who tackled that terrorist a few years ago on the bridge, who had killed a couple of people at a conference and was wearing what they believed to be a bomb. The chap who tackled him (along with a couple of others) was a convicted murderer himself who had served his time and been released ...[text shortened]... ctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” (Luke 5:31)

I can't get upset because a rapist is burning in hell.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Whoosh

Justice is as primary as love is, so your argument to promote one attribute over the other is an error on your part.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Sure, and some go on to do positive things. - I think of, for example, that chap who tackled that terrorist a few years ago on the bridge, who had killed a couple of people at a conference and was wearing what they believed to be a bomb. The chap who tackled him (along with a couple of others) was a convicted murderer himself who had served his time and been released ...[text shortened]... ctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” (Luke 5:31)

Redemption and forgiveness are possible due to God’s grace and they have to do with our standing with God.

Being redeemed doesn’t remove our obligation to our society’s laws if we committed crimes, repentance is a part of God’s calling on our lives, so to see that is a good thing regardless of where we are, or for how long we left to live.

Due process and verdicts could bring a life to an end, that is just part of life. Even for an innocent man having their life ruined and ended by corrupt justice system, or an error in justice by untrue charges thought to be true. Those are not much different than losing one’s life in any other possible way by injustice or errors, bad things can happen to us all, these are common things with us.

I would remind you of the thief on the cross, in the middle of his execution he is saved by Christ, we are all given time and all of our time has a time limit. Very few of us know when we are living in our last day! Knowing maybe what brings one to Christ.

I would recommend watching an excerpt from a talk by Dr. Allisrair Begg, “Man on the middle cross” it’s less than 4 minutes, humorous that has to do with that thief I posted it here a number of times.

@the-gravedigger said
I can't get upset because a rapist is burning in hell.

How about an innocent person being executed?

Kelly apparently has factored that in, and finds it an acceptable price to pay.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
How about an innocent person being executed?

Kelly apparently has factored that in, and finds it an acceptable price to pay.

I factored in everything, there is nothing that happens to any of us that isn't common to man. You are attempting to say that we cannot judge ourselves due to it is possible that someone not guilty could be found guilty, yes that could happen. It is also true that when we don't do away with the guilty justly other innocents can be found to be harmed due to our lack of will to judge with as much clarity in righteousness as possible.

Innocent people are murdered all of the time, locking up or putting the guilty to death are both just recompense for such crimes and others depending on the circumstances of each crime. Do you have a problem with punishment for crimes?

So do you equate abortion with capital punishment?

@kellyjay said

Innocent people are murdered all of the time, locking up or putting the guilty to death are both just recompense for such crimes and others depending on the circumstances of each crime. Do you have a problem with punishment for crimes?

So do you equate abortion with capital punishment?

I find this the most repellent part of your belief structure. "Innocent people are murdered all of the time" = who cares therefore if an innocent person is executed in error. - I wonder if you would think differently if that innocent person executed was somebody you knew and cared about.

And yes, I have a problem with punishment for crimes if that punishment is capital punishment. I find that to be barbaric and with no place in a modern civilized society. I also think it is something a Christian especially should be opposed to and that a Christian who is in favour of capital punishment has really failed to comprehend the teachings of Christ. (Big time).

Abortion and capital punishment both sit uncomfortably with me, but I do recognise that the abortion issue is a complicated one and there are situations where the decision should remain with the mother (or doctor if the issue relates to the mother's own survival).

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I find this the most repellent part of your belief structure. "Innocent people are murdered all of the time" = who cares therefore if an innocent person is executed in error. - I wonder if you would think differently if that innocent person executed was somebody you knew and cared about.

And yes, I have a problem with punishment for crimes if that punishment is cap ...[text shortened]... ecision should remain with the mother (or doctor if the issue relates to the mother's own survival).

It isn't puzzling to me that you find it repellent, you pick and choose what you value and what you don't. I'm treating each life of equal importance, each event that we deal with equality as well, evil people do not get to harm and avoid facing a just recompense for their crimes, simply due to human limitations on not knowing everything there is to know to avoid possibly ending an innocent human life.

Do you hold this view on other possibly dangerous activities where every single human life is so valuable nothing should ever be done that puts anyone in harm's way? We should do away with driving cars, trucks, airplanes, tractors, using power tools, and playing sports. Compared to an innocent being found guilty over crimes you didn't do and then put to death, are these other activities okay?

The fact that this comes up in an abortion discussion also shows some care more about those who are guilty and compare them to the truly innocent and completely vulnerable to harm being unable to speak for themselves or take any action, whose only crime is being.

@kellyjay said
It isn't puzzling to me that you find it repellent, you pick and choose what you value and what you don't. I'm treating each life of equal importance, each event that we deal with equality as well, evil people do not get to harm and avoid facing a just recompense for their crimes, simply due to human limitations on not knowing everything there is to know to avoid possibly e ...[text shortened]... lnerable to harm being unable to speak for themselves or take any action, whose only crime is being.

Let's break it down. Christians (apparently) believe in the sanctity of life. This means life is holy and as such belongs to God, which in turn takes us to the biblical truth that only God has the power to take life. Are you God?

And how do you know what God has in store for a person, beyond their sin? Again, look at the transformation of Saul to the apostle Paul. - It's you Kelly who picks and choose which teachings of Jesus to follow and which to blindly abandon.

A Christian who favours capital punishment is a Christian I believe who doesn't really have much faith in God's final judgement.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Let's break it down. Christians (apparently) believe in the sanctity of life. This means life is holy and as such belongs to God, which in turn takes us to the biblical truth that only God has the power to take life. Are you God?

And how do you know what God has in store for a person, beyond their sin? Again, look at the transformation of Saul to the apostle Paul. ...[text shortened]... tal punishment is a Christian I believe who doesn't really have much faith in God's final judgement.

Yes, but you are not breaking it down as Christians believe, it may be what you believe, or it may be what you think Christian beliefs are, or should believe if you understand them properly, but you are wrong, in error, you don't understand, looking at it from a non-Christian point of view. You are suggesting it is wrong because you are putting value in the wrong place, so you don't understand. So it doesn't add up to you.

Life, all human life was made in the image of God, and God's righteousness, goodness, and holiness, are more important than human life itself, it is His image we ruin when we take our lives and break away from God's image. We all condemned already, everyone has sinned. To paraphrase (RC Scroll) without exception the only time someone innocent was punished and didn't deserve it was Jesus Christ and He volunteered. In Christ we are being conformed to Jesus' image, justified by God for God, outside of Him our guilt remains.

I do believe righteousness is more important than our lives, when we go against righteousness we just show we are sinners. Our justice system is set up so that it is supposed to be done with justice blind, only the facts should matter, blind justice is not to look at who is on trial to see if they are liked, loved, disliked, or hated, part of the in the crowd, in the right political party, and that no one in the system is gaming it to get what they want.

Life and how we deal with it all comes from God, and God sets up our systems with rules, as long as the rules are followed it should be a level playing field. I have to say you spend a lot of time accusing me of acting as God while I'm only pointing to His word, I'm not taking it upon myself to set the rules and tell others how it should be done, that would be what you are doing.