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28 Jan 06
2 edits
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemWell lets pretend that they hadn't sinned... Didn't they then just receive a short cut to Heaven?
Even if Job's family 'sinned', I don't agree that all 'sins' warrant capital punishment.
God's personal 'standard' of moral perfection is unknown. Being powerful, he feels no obligation to justify anything that he does. The last part of Job makes this clear. God's servants are expected to follow out of fear, not understanding.
And if they had sinned, what sin do you think deserves capital punishment?
You seem to miss the point that God is a righteous judge. What is mortal man to decide what God should or shouldn't do?
28 Jan 06
Originally posted by dj2beckerI personally do not agree with capital punishment myself. I believe no one has the right to take a life but God alone. Only the creator should be able to destroy the created. A man can build a house and not be satisfied. He - however - owns the house. He has full right by law to tear down the house - to even burn it to the ground. God is holding all of us by a thread (just like Jonathan Edwards said) and the flame is ever so close. We are only spiders on the ends of this thread, only so far away from the flames of hell. If God wanted, He could destroy us all. But, his mercy, love and grace are allowing Him no to do this. God has all power and power on Earth is only allowed through Him who has power in Heaven. Jesus told Pontius Pilate that He would not have power lest He had not been given his power from above.
Well lets pretend that they hadn't sinned... Didn't they then just receive a short cut to Heaven?
And if they had sinned, what sin do you think deserves capital punishment?
You seem to miss the point that God is a righteous judge. What is mortal man to decide what God should or shouldn't do?
29 Jan 06
Originally posted by powershakerSo, in your world, man's point of contact with God is His love? Get real. Our point of contact with God is His justice. Don't put on God your effusive emotions.
I personally do not agree with capital punishment myself. I believe no one has the right to take a life but God alone. Only the creator should be able to destroy the created. A man can build a house and not be satisfied. He - however - owns the house. He has full right by law to tear down the house - to even burn it to the ground. God is holding al ...[text shortened]... old Pontius Pilate that He would not have power lest He had not been given his power from above.
29 Jan 06
1 edit
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemJob 1:5 says, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." It does not definitively say they did curse God.
Job 1:5 says, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." It does not definitively say they did curse God.
I don't see why Job needed testing to achieve perfection, because the book already says he was blameless.
Read Job 30 and 31 to find out how Job doubted God. He even called God out. He wanted God to t sit back and pretend that God is perfect when he violates his own moral codes so cavalierly.
True, but it’s enough to consider the possibility. If Job being perfect (and their daddy) suspects that his family is sinful we can say that the scripture strongly suggests it.
I don't see why Job needed testing to achieve perfection, because the book already says he was blameless.
Blameless yes, and therefore perfect. What does this really mean? It could mean that he had never been tested in the tuff way that God tested him, and it could mean that he was ready for such a tuff test. The scripture also says somewhere that God doesn’t give us any tests that we cannot handle. Obviously Job past the test and kept his faith.
Read Job 30 and 31 to find out how Job doubted God. He even called God out. He wanted God to tell him to his face why he was suffering.
Calling God out means asking for an explanation. Asking for an explanation does not mean rejecting God. Considering what Job went through and considering his close relationship with God it would be strange if he didn’t ask for an explanation.
Job 42:11-12 is still of small consolation to his dead family. But, as long as one life is enriched, who cares if 100 die.
Job 42:10-11 “After Job had prayed for his friends, the Lord made him prosperous again and gave him twice as much as he had before. 11 And all his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring.” (NIV)
This could also mean that after God took his loved ones he returned them to him. His family and servants knew him before the test right?
This is the Bible we’re talking about. Miracles happened. If I told you that God took the souls of Job’s family and friends so that they didn’t suffer, kept them in Heaven lets say, and then returned them to Job after the test, would that help you to understand it any better? This is all just a theory of coarse.
Read Job 40:1-2. "Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?"
Isn’t this what God says? Job says in 4 “I am unworthy-how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth.”
"Our critical thinking can never make sense of God." Perhaps, but a God of moral perfection should not do obviously morally wrong things. It is one thing to say we don't understand how God can create the universe. It is another to sit back and pretend that God is perfect when he violates his own moral codes so cavalierly.
We don’t really know what’s right and wrong when we try to Judge God’s actions. Some say God murders millions of people everyday, others say God brings them back to him so they may live in paradise for all eternity. Do you know what God does? Do you know what he knows? If not perhaps you shouldn’t be so quick to judge him. Just a thought. 🙂
29 Jan 06
1 edit
Originally posted by i am scientistsI think Stang probably cares about God otherwise he wouldn’t persist the way he does. It’s just that other peoples descriptions of God have pushed him over the edge. I think I experienced some of that last night… 😞
you say all of these people who have mocked god and died. but STANG's still going strong. do you get my drift??
29 Jan 06
2 edits
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressThe scripture does not strongly suggest that Job's children cursed God in their hearts. It suggests that Job was very careful to insure his children against the wrath of God.
Job 1:5 says, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." It does not definitively say they did curse God.
True, but it’s enough to consider the possibility. If Job being perfect (and their daddy) suspects that his family is sinful we can say that the scripture strongly suggests it.
I don't see w what he knows? If not perhaps you shouldn’t be so quick to judge him. Just a thought. 🙂
If Job had 'stayed true' throughout the ordeal, he would not have needed to repent later on.
Job's brothers and sisters weren't killed; his sons and daughters were. (Job 1:18-19)
You had asked for a verse when God warns Job not to contend with him, so I gave you 40:1-2. It was supposed to be something God says.
In the story, I know exactly what God does. He gives permission to murder innocent people, and even helps out with some fire from heaven. The bible seems like the strongest evidence that the God within its pages does not exist.
30 Jan 06
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemOk, I hope you find better answers. Peace.
The scripture does not strongly suggest that Job's children cursed God in their hearts. It suggests that Job was very careful to insure his children against the wrath of God.
If Job had 'stayed true' throughout the ordeal, he would not have needed to repent later on.
Job's brothers and sisters weren't killed; his sons and daughters were. (Job 1: ...[text shortened]... . The bible seems like the strongest evidence that the God within its pages does not exist.
30 Jan 06
Originally posted by dj2becker
Please explain what you mean with 'makeup'.
Your physical body, your senses, instincts etc.
How do you know that my God lies beyond my ability to conceive him, sense him, or know anything about him?
By definition, supernatural; beyond the natural. We've been over this so many times. Do you ever take anything in?
It is all the more obvious to me that you have made up your mind on quite a number of things.
How? I remain in a position of denial in regards to the existence of god until I am presented with convincing evidence to the contrary. I have not made my mind up about anything. You however have wholeheartedly stuck yourself to a position from which you cannot change.
I hesitate to share things with you that are very precious to me, as you seem to be out to ridicule everything I say.
I am not out to ridicule your words as nauseum, only those words which are ridiculous. I am asking you to share your experiences so I am able to get a better idea of what it is that has caused you to decide to follow something for which there is no convincing evidence. If you really have had an experience which is of the supernatural, which caused you to put aside all your experienced 'utter hideousness of sin' then do you not have a duty to god to share that with others?
If you have never cried out to God to reveal Himself to you, then I find it hard to believe that my testimony will be of any value or meaning to you.
Surely, in your eyes, no-one is beyond the need for salvation dj. If you are right, isn't it just that I have yet to be ready to accept god? Keep trying.
It is not I that promise it but God Himself promises in His word that if you seek Him with all your heart you will find Him. So why don't you just take Him on by His word and you can see for yourself.
Don't you see how ridiculous that sounds? I deny the existence of your god, but you're asking me to open my heart and accept him anyway? Tell me dj, what would you accept from me on faith alone?
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30 Jan 06
1 edit
Originally posted by StarrmanYour physical body, your senses, instincts etc.
Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]Please explain what you mean with 'makeup'.
Your physical body, your senses, instincts etc.
How do you know that my God lies beyond my ability to conceive him, sense him, or know anything about him?
By definition, supernatural; beyond the natural. We've been over this so many times. Do heart and accept him anyway? Tell me dj, what would you accept from me on faith alone?[/b]
Do you deny that the spiritual part of the human makeup exists?
By definition, [b]supernatural; beyond the natural. We've been over this so many times. Do you ever take anything in?[/b]
I believe that the huaman makeup consists of a spiritual part which is able to sense the supernatural in a manner with which we are able to conceive, sense, or know anything about it. It seems to me you have made up your mind that this is not possible.
I am not out to ridicule your words as nauseum, only those words which are ridiculous.
I see. So is everything that you are incapable of conceiving ridiculous?
I am asking you to share your experiences so I am able to get a better idea of what it is that has caused you to decide to follow something for which there is no convincing evidence.
Fair enough. But do you not think that I have had convincing evidence to warrant my belief? It seems to me that you have already made up your mind that there is no convincing evidence.
If you really have had an experience which is of the supernatural, which caused you to put aside all your experienced 'utter hideousness of sin' then do you not have a duty to god to share that with others?
How do I know that you are not out to ridicule me as you have been doing all along? The last time I gave you a brief summary you responded with "This is rubbish..." The word of God does tell me not to "throw my pearls before the swine". But let me make a deal with you. I'll give you the web address of the a booklet explaining about the place in which I grew up and it has the testimony of my pastor. If you promise to read this and get back to me with your comments I will consider that you are ready to hear my story. The address is: http://www.ksb.org.za/articles/revival.htm
30 Jan 06
1 edit
Originally posted by dj2beckerThat depends on what your definition of spiritual is. I am a physicalist; I have yet to see any reason why what most people call spirituality cannot be part of the purely biological context of the consciousness of the human mind. Now this is not to say that is how my mind is set, if I am shown or have experience of something which alters my perception of the subject, I am bound to alter my stance. This is true of all things I come across in life. So when you say I have already made up my mind, you are wrong in thinking this is a permanent thing; it is only that I have formed my perception based on my current experiences.
[b]Your physical body, your senses, instincts etc.
Do you deny that the spiritual part of the human makeup exists?
By definition, [b]supernatural; beyond the natural. We've been over this so many times. Do you ever take anything in?[/b]
I believe that the huaman makeup consists of a spiritual part which is able to sense the supernatur u are ready to hear my story. The address is: http://www.ksb.org.za/articles/revival.htm[/b]
I can concieve of your god, but this is pretty much imagination and wihtout tying that imagination to realistic evidence, yes, I must consider it ridiculous. Perhaps you have had convincing evidence, that is why I am asking you to share. Despite your view that I have made up my mind, I am asking you to clarify and inform me so that I can test the position I hold and discover if it is wanting of revision. You on the other hand do not do this, your position is absolute.
My use of the word rubbish was to highlight that your answer was not sufficient, not to say that what you wrote was rubbish in itself. I will read your pastor's pamphlet.
EDIT: Though since it is nearly 30000 words long, your story better be detailed...