27 Jan 06
2 edits
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemPlease re-read the quoted passage. God's doing more than just allowing people to die. Fire from heaven (i.e., from God and not Satan) killed a bunch of servants and sheep. "...maybe those people deserved it" -- Job didn't; he was declared blameless. I doubt that Job's family and servants committed any acts worthy of death. Usually the bible is all too happy to point those out as justification of god's wrath. In this case, why imagine other reasons for their death when the real reason is given quite explicitely in Job 1?
Please re-read the quoted passage. God's doing more than just allowing people to die. Fire from heaven (i.e., from God and not Satan) killed a bunch of servants and sheep.
I have a problem accepting a god who insists that human beings regard each other's lives as sacred, yet snuffs out human life at whim just to win a bet with the devil. You ca alleged 'morally perfect' god are some of the most immoral committed in its pages.
Whether God takes a soul by fire, disease, old age, etc there’s not much difference. What will be will be. Yes, some suffer more than others. If we reap what we sow than we get what we give whether it be good or bad.
The Bible only says that Job was perfect, not everybody else. The Bible doesn’t mention what sins Job’s family and servants committed. It’s possible to assume that Job’s family and servants were not perfect.
I have a problem accepting a god who insists that human beings regard each other's lives as sacred, yet snuffs out human life at whim just to win a bet with the devil.
It wasn’t a whim, it was a test. That’s one of the reasons why God allows the devil to tempt us. Perfection is a lofty goal. Do you think that perfection can be achieved bye never being tested?
Job was perfect and we are not. Job knew far more about God’s ways than we do and he stayed true. It was Job who endured the test not us. If the test strengthened Job’s faith, why should it diminish ours?
The story of Job bothered me when I was still a believer; now, it just reads like poorly written mythology. Time after time, the bible shows that the actions of an alleged 'morally perfect' god are some of the most immoral committed in its pages.
We all take what we want from the Bible. Just a suggestion, take a look at the story posted by KingDavid403 on page 11 of my “Is the Bible Accurate” thread. I feel that it’s an example of what can happen if we give our doubts to God.
Peace.
27 Jan 06
1 edit
YEAH! PEACE plz from those who cant stop believing in myth to avoid facing challenges of cruel but desired life! Express your rage mr. express , not what u called Peace. Peace has taken a vacation from our damaged world, peace is an unsignificant word for those who, smartly, dont believe in your myth, in fact bcause they dont have to..
Religion, God, Christ, Prophet, Heaven, bla..bla..bla..
PIECES OF CHOCOLATE TO FORGET ABOUT THE PAIN.. AND RUN OFF...
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27 Jan 06
Originally posted by DialaI think this is the thread you meant to post on:
YEAH! PEACE plz from those who cant stop believing in myth to avoid facing challenges of cruel but desired life! Express your rage mr. express , not what u called Peace. Peace has taken a vacation from our damaged world, peace is an unsignificant word for those who, smartly, dont believe in your myth, in fact bcause they dont have to..
Religion, God, Christ, Prophet, Heaven, bla..bla..bla..
PIECES OF CHOCOLATE TO FORGET ABOUT THE PAIN.. AND RUN OFF...
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=36904
27 Jan 06
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressNow I'm going to be serious.
I have a life. Enough of one to not have to get my kicks off of belittling others and trashing their religion. You sound like you’re still searching for lasting happiness yourself.
For 1700 years the Christian religion has been squashed by the results of Constantine and others, 1900 if you add in Ireneus.
What passes for Christianity is that the Good Christian Armies have been empowered by God to spread the word.
The only trouble is: It's the wrong word.
I have heard the Error preaching it's vileness through so many Christians that it's a wonder that I ever bothered to correct any of it.
Much of what passes as Christianity has zero to do with God since it's merely the collective opinion of a bunch of con-men.
Seek and Ye Shall Find has meaning but you wont find that meaning wasting time calling youself a Christian. If you don't know what I mean then you need to do a lot of seeking for yourself.
27 Jan 06
Originally posted by frogstompFor 1700 years the Christian religion has been squashed by the results of Constantine and others, 1900 if you add in Ireneus. What passes for Christianity is that the Good Christian Armies have been empowered by God to spread the word. The only trouble is: It's the wrong word.
Now I'm going to be serious.
For 1700 years the Christian religion has been squashed by the results of Constantine and others, 1900 if you add in Ireneus.
What passes for Christianity is that the Good Christian Armies have been empowered by God to spread the word.
The only trouble is: It's the wrong word.
I have heard the E ...[text shortened]... n. If you don't know what I mean then you need to do a lot of seeking for yourself.
Christianity exists in the relationships people have with God. The crusades would have happened whether Christianity existed or not. All throughout history people have been twisting their religion to start wars and trouble. This is not unique to Christianity.
I have heard the Error preaching it's vileness through so many Christians that it's a wonder that I ever bothered to correct any of it. Much of what passes as Christianity has zero to do with God since it's merely the collective opinion of a bunch of con-men. Seek and Ye Shall Find has meaning but you wont find that meaning wasting time calling youself a Christian. If you don't know what I mean then you need to do a lot of seeking for yourself.
Your last sentence is true indeed. I don’t know what you mean and I still have a lot of searching to do. Since you’ve momentarily dropped out of attack mode, why don’t you explain to us what the real message of Christianity is?
P.S. If it’s something rude or vile then I’d rather you didn’t.
28 Jan 06
Originally posted by dj2beckerFrom an engineering perspective, a designer would certainly want to try re-designing a product that was 100% flawed.
So do you think the continuous chain of repeatedly creating Adam and Eve and then killing them would have solved the problem of human depravity?
28 Jan 06
Originally posted by dj2beckerEven if Job's family 'sinned', I don't agree that all 'sins' warrant capital punishment.
[b]I doubt that Job's family and servants committed any acts worthy of death.
Why do you think Job made sacrifices to the Lord on behalf of his children?
The story of Job bothered me when I was still a believer; now, it just reads like poorly written mythology. Time after time, the bible shows that the actions of an alleged 'morally perfect' g ...[text shortened]... d in its pages.
Is sinful man's definition of 'morally perfect' the same as God's?[/b]
God's personal 'standard' of moral perfection is unknown. Being powerful, he feels no obligation to justify anything that he does. The last part of Job makes this clear. God's servants are expected to follow out of fear, not understanding.
28 Jan 06
1 edit
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressThe killing of Job's family and servants was a massacre. I won't accept that it was simply 'reaping what was sown'. In fact, your line of argument is eerily similiar to the arguments of Job's 'friends', who are condemned at the end of the book.
Please re-read the quoted passage. God's doing more than just allowing people to die. Fire from heaven (i.e., from God and not Satan) killed a bunch of servants and sheep. "...maybe those people deserved it" -- Job didn't; he was declared blameless. I doubt that Job's family and servants committed any acts worthy of death. Usually the bible is a I feel that it’s an example of what can happen if we give our doubts to God.
Peace.
If Job was perfect, then why was he struck down with a severe illness? His case undermines the argument that suffering is the result of sin.
I don't care whether you call it a 'whim', or a 'test'. Couldn't an all-powerful god think of a way to test Job's faith without killing his entire family?!??
Job did not 'stay true' throughout the story (maybe I should insist that you read it before continuing further!). He cursed the day of his birth, then questioned god for putting him through all the trials. At the end, he 'repents in dust and ashes'.
The whole story has a weakening effect on faith. The depressing conclusion is that the very powerful need not explain themselves to the peons they control. Job's submission at the end is based on fear, not understanding. God warns him not to 'contend with the Almighty'.
"Giv[ing] our doubts to God" sounds an awful lot like checking our critical thinking at the door. A faith that requires this is asking too much of its followers.
28 Jan 06
1 edit
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemGod's servants are expected to follow out of fear, not understanding.
Even if Job's family 'sinned', I don't agree that all 'sins' warrant capital punishment.
God's personal 'standard' of moral perfection is unknown. Being powerful, he feels no obligation to justify anything that he does. The last part of Job makes this clear. God's servants are expected to follow out of fear, not understanding.
I John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear has torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
I John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
You can make the scripture say anything you like. Why let one story that you can't make sense of destroy your faith? You sound like you fear God far more than you love him. This is why all you see is the bad.
28 Jan 06
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemThe killing of Job's family and servants was a massacre. I won't accept that it was simply 'reaping what was sown'. In fact, your line of argument is eerily similiar to the arguments of Job's 'friends', who are condemned at the end of the book.
The killing of Job's family and servants was a massacre. I won't accept that it was simply 'reaping what was sown'. In fact, your line of argument is eerily similiar to the arguments of Job's 'friends', who are condemned at the end of the book.
If Job was perfect, then why was he struck down with a severe illness? His case undermines the argume ...[text shortened]... at the door. A faith that requires this is asking too much of its followers.
Ok, nobody can make you accept anything. Read verse 5 though. Job mentions that his family sinned and cursed God.
If Job was perfect, then why was he struck down with a severe illness? His case undermines the argument that suffering is the result of sin.
God makes it clear that it was a test. Do you believe perfection can be achieved without being tested?
I don't care whether you call it a 'whim', or a 'test'. Couldn't an all-powerful god think of a way to test Job's faith without killing his entire family?!??
I understand what you’re saying here. I don’t know how such a thing would affect me in terms of my relationship with God, so I won’t try to give you any clever answers.
Job did not 'stay true' throughout the story (maybe I should insist that you read it before continuing further!). He cursed the day of his birth, then questioned god for putting him through all the trials. At the end, he 'repents in dust and ashes'.
Correct me if I’m wrong but the test was to see if Job would curse God. Cursing the day he was born and asking God “why” is understandable considering what he went through. He never cursed God though. This is why I say he remained true.
The whole story has a weakening effect on faith. The depressing conclusion is that the very powerful need not explain themselves to the peons they control. Job's submission at the end is based on fear, not understanding. God warns him not to 'contend with the Almighty'.
Job 42:11-12 Says that Job got everything back including all those that had died. In fact God gave Job twice as much as before. I believe that the story is about keeping the faith through the trials of life. We all go through them.
I’m not sure why you say that God didn’t explain himself. We do have the book of Job. Could you give me the verse where God tells Job not to contend with him?
"Giv[ing] our doubts to God" sounds an awful lot like checking our critical thinking at the door. A faith that requires this is asking too much of its followers.
Our critical thinking can never make sense of God. God has to be experienced.
28 Jan 06
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressToo many contradictions! That's precisely why I left the faith. I can't believe all of these things simultaneously:
[b]God's servants are expected to follow out of fear, not understanding.
I John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear has torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
I John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
You can make the scripture say anything you like. Why le ...[text shortened]... h? You sound like you fear God far more than you love him. This is why all you see is the bad.[/b]
- The bible is 100% true and the word of god
- But you can interpret it any way you like
- God is loving, caring, and morally perfect
- God has no problem killing 100 people to test the faith of one person
I neither love nor fear the christian god...I believe he doesn't exist. I remain agnostic on the existance of other deities.
28 Jan 06
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressJob 1:5 says, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." It does not definitively say they did curse God.
[b]The killing of Job's family and servants was a massacre. I won't accept that it was simply 'reaping what was sown'. In fact, your line of argument is eerily similiar to the arguments of Job's 'friends', who are condemned at the end of the book.
Ok, nobody can make you accept anything. Read verse 5 though. Job mentions that his family sinn ...[text shortened]... critical thinking can never make sense of God. God has to be experienced.[/b]
I don't see why Job needed testing to achieve perfection, because the book already says he was blameless.
Read Job 30 and 31 to find out how Job doubted God. He even called God out. He wanted God to tell him to his face why he was suffering.
Job 42:11-12 is still of small consolation to his dead family. But, as long as one life is enriched, who cares if 100 die.
Read Job 40:1-2. "Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?"
"Our critical thinking can never make sense of God." Perhaps, but a God of moral perfection should not do obviously morally wrong things. It is one thing to say we don't understand how God can create the universe. It is another to sit back and pretend that God is perfect when he violates his own moral codes so cavalierly.
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28 Jan 06
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemHow was it 100% flawed?
From an engineering perspective, a designer would certainly want to try re-designing a product that was 100% flawed.
Are you saying that God's creation was 100% flawed simply because God gave them free-will?
Do you think it better if He had created robots?
28 Jan 06
1 edit
Originally posted by frogstompcon-men? So, are you saying Peter, Paul and the 500 people who witnessed Jesus ascend into heaven were all con men? Boy, you're ignorant. You need to read "The Case For Christ," and come to reality. It's written by Lee Strobel. Do your research before you post ignorant posts.
Now I'm going to be serious.
For 1700 years the Christian religion has been squashed by the results of Constantine and others, 1900 if you add in Ireneus.
What passes for Christianity is that the Good Christian Armies have been empowered by God to spread the word.
The only trouble is: It's the wrong word.
I have heard the Error f you don't know what I mean then you need to do a lot of seeking for yourself.
28 Jan 06
3 edits
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemGod doesn't do the killing. Man has free will to kill. God has killed only to rid the world of evil in some cases - like Sodom and Gomorrah. However, all of your assumptions are wrong. Read the "The Case for Christ" and "The Case For A Creator," both written by Lee Strobel. He interviews the greatest minds in the world on various difficult subjects and puts Jesus and the Creator to the test as you would in a court of law. I think you'll feel stupid when you see who wins. But, you are blinded because you do not have Jesus in your heart. Even the Bible says you can even show a damned man that Jesus Lives! You can even give Him the prophets (as Jesus's parable of the rich man in hell and Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham makes evident) and he will still doubt you! In other words, you can tell him 1+1 = 2, but he will still doubt and scoff at the Word of God, because He is blinded by a lack of faith. His soul will wage war against the truths of God, and He will not wish to subject Himself to the judgement of God, because deep inside himself he knows he's lost inside.
Too many contradictions! That's precisely why I left the faith. I can't believe all of these things simultaneously:
- The bible is 100% true and the word of god
- But you can interpret it any way you like
- God is loving, caring, and morally perfect
- God has no problem killing 100 people to test the faith of one person
I neither love nor fea ...[text shortened]... istian god...I believe he doesn't exist. I remain agnostic on the existance of other deities.