Jehovah Witnesses and Sexual Abuse of Children

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
but you have not answered whether you think someone is more or less likely to make a confession knowing that they will be instantly betrayed. You have dodged the question again.

School teachers are not trained to hear confession, its only ministers of God that are trained!

i dont know the stats. i could give you some anecdotal evidence, but i know how much you hate that. do you have any evidence either way?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I just gave you my take on it. i think they are simply more likely to hide knowing that they will be betrayed. After all why would they be motivated to own up if they new that they would face instant betrayal?

No. You are answering a different question of your own. The cover-up-for-a-confession system may even 'empower' sex abusers. I'd be interested in your take on THIS idea. How many still-active child sex predators are there who have placed themselves beyond the reach of the law by confessing to managers of some sort or another in your organisation? Even if you don't know the exact answer, isn't the fact that this could be the case worrying to you?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie


School teachers are not trained to hear confession, its only ministers of God that are trained!

what difference would it make?

Originally posted by FMF
Another alternative is to create a corporate culture where sexually abused children can come forward ~ speak truth to power ~ and seek help and justice without feeling they are confronted by a set of trust relationships between the adults designed to either cover up sex crimes or at least let the sex abusers get away with it (assuming they are not prosecuted for their crimes).

I don't see how this even relates to penitent privilege,and is not very helpful at all in exploring any of the issues. Its resembles a kind of R.J Hindus tinfoil hat conspiracy theory.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
what difference would it make?

What difference does it make? would you ask a butcher to plumb in your shower? what about a brick layer to make a wedding cake? What difference does it make? Ministers of God are trained to deal with confession and offer appropriate counsel, that's what difference it makes.

Why will you not answer the question that was put to you and instead dodge it a third time? are you fearful of self incrimination? of committing yourself to a particular stance that may be overturned?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i think [sex criminals] are simply more likely to hide knowing that they will be betrayed.

What about the idea that sex criminals are simply more likely to get caught, confession or no confession, if their victims don't feel that their abuse is going to be covered up by the adults around them?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I don't see how this even relates to penitent privilege,and is not very helpful at all in exploring any of the issues. Its resembles a kind of R.J Hindus tinfoil hat conspiracy theory.

I was talking about tackling the fact that some adults have sex with children. My comment was about fostering a culture in which victims can come forward safe in the knowledge that their suffering will not be covered up. I wasn't talking about "penitent privilege".

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
It seems to me that this would preserve both the sanctity of penitent privilege and would avail the victim or the perpetrator of professional help.

Ministers of religion are not trained to deal with criminality, they are trained to deal with spirituality and situations like this puts them under an unfair moral dilemma, that being to protect the ...[text shortened]... e perpetrator and to adhere to secular laws which may compromise one or either of these stances.

Does your organisation specifically employ any psychologists or run any therapy or counselling programmes for JW children who are victims of sexual abuse at the hands of JW adults? Are there psychologists on hand and programmes provided for JW adults who are child sex abusers or who are at risk of becoming abusers?

Originally posted by FMF
What about the idea that sex criminals are simply more likely to get caught, confession or no confession, if their victims don't feel that their abuse is going to be covered up by the adults around them?

These are two separate issues, one relating to the victim and on relating to the perpetrator. There are I suspect many reasons why a victim might not feel motivated to report the crime, guilt and shame, fear of reprisal, it might be a parent, tinfoil hat scenarios of corporate cover ups I think would be pretty far down on their list.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
What difference does it make? would you ask a butcher to plumb in your shower? what about a brick layer to make a wedding cake? What difference does it make? Ministers of God are trained to deal with confession and offer appropriate counsel, that's what difference it makes.

Why will you not answer the question that was put to you and instead dodg ...[text shortened]... ful of self incrimination? of committing yourself to a particular stance that may be overturned?

okay, so we have a school who employs staff who are also trained minsters. it does so because it thinks this will encourage teachers who are sex offenders to confess. all confession will be confidential.

would you support a school who had this policy?


Why will you not answer the question that was put to you and instead dodge it a third time? are you fearful of self incrimination? of committing yourself to a particular stance that may be overturned?

ive been honest, i have zero data, i cant prove either way. i have offered you anecdotal evidence, but i know from past debates you dislike anecdotal evidence....im not sure how else i can answer you.

Originally posted by FMF
Does your organisation specifically employ any psychologists or run any therapy or counselling programmes for JW children who are victims of sexual abuse at the hands of JW adults? Are there psychologists on hand and programmes provided for JW adults who are child sex abusers or who are at risk of becoming abusers?

We are minsters of God we are not psychologists. They will be counselled to seek professional help.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
okay, so we have a school who employs staff who are also trained minsters. it does so because it thinks this will encourage teachers who are sex offenders to confess. all confession will be confidential.

would you support a school who had this policy?


[b]Why will you not answer the question that was put to you and instead dodge it a third time? ...[text shortened]... know from past debates you dislike anecdotal evidence....im not sure how else i can answer you.

LOL, some Witnesses are teachers, some will be elders and are trained as ministers of God to hear confessions. I think i am still in favour of penitent privilege as I think its much more likely to result in confessions and thus people being helped. Infact despite asking i can see no reason why anyone who perpetrates child abuse would voluntarily make a confession knowing they would be betrayed in an instant and face jail and punishment. Yes I would support this school.

So you cannot say if one is more or less likely to make a confession. How do the people that you counsel get caught? Do they fess up or are they for the most part found out?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
These are two separate issues, one relating to the victim and on relating to the perpetrator. There are I suspect may be many reasons why a victim might not feel motivated to report the crime, guilt and shame, fear of reprisal, it might be a parent, tinfoil hat scenarios of corporate cover ups I think would be pretty far down on their list.

The issues are most certainly not separate. In fact it is a peculiar thing for you to say. If there is a corporate culture conducive to victims of sexual crimes feeling able to come forward, it most certainly affects the perpetrators ~ it would in fact probably put a stop to a lot of their activity. Some schools in this country ~ the one my kids go to for example ~ run anti-bullying activities which proscribe certain behaviours but also empower victims and make them more aware of their predicament and solutions. Does the JW organisation run any special programmes aimed at tackling child sex abuse by enabling and empowering children to deal with and escape from their abusers and even expose them?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
We are minsters of God we are not psychologists. They will be counselled to seek professional help.

I work in schools, if a child informed me that they were being abused I would report what the child had said to the schools safeguarding team in an instant. I have had instances where a child has disclosed information which I felt the appropriate people should know. Children's safety is paramount, as a teacher I have a duty of care to the children.

Out of curiousty what would you do if a child of JW parents made an allegation of child abuse to you?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I just gave you my take on it. i think they are simply more likely to hide knowing that they will be betrayed. After all why would they be motivated to own up if they new that they would face instant betrayal?

I agree that [without evidence confirming it] it seems likely that fewer people
would 'confess' their crimes if they knew that those crimes would be reported
to the police...

So what?

Unless the police are brought in to deal with the issue the confession has absolutely
no value what-so-ever.