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08 Sep 14
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Originally posted by RJHindsI choose rather to obey the Lord's word.
There is nothing that proves a pre-tribulation rapture. So maybe you should rethink your position since the Holy Bible says "after the tribulation" not before.
Luke 21:36 - "But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man."
08 Sep 14
Originally posted by sonship[/b]That does not prove a pre-tribulation rapture either?
I choose rather to obey the Lord's word.
Luke 21:36 - [b] "But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man."
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08 Sep 14
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Originally posted by RJHindsIt sounds like your major concern is merely to absolve yourself from all responsibility.
That does not prove a pre-tribulation rapture either?
If there is no possibility of the escape of these things, then this waters down to nothing your inclination to watch and beseech the Lord that you would prevail to escape.
If there is no possibility that to keep the word of His endurance would qualify you to be removed from the hour of trial, then there is no incentive to desire to keep the word of His endurance.
The effect of your teaching is not much different from the other error of thinking the whole church will be raptured pre-tribulation regardless of spiritual condition. Your post-tribulation rapture tends to the same neglect of vigilance but for the opposite reason.
The devil is very subtle to try to trap people on one side or the other of the truth.
Both errors tend to want to absolve Christians from responsibility.
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08 Sep 14
Originally posted by RJHindsRJHinds submits -
The First Seal - The White Horse
I believe the revealing of the White Horse and Rider is first, because it is the prominent feature that begins the endtimes events leading right in to the tribulations of those days. This Rider on the White Horse is the spirit of the Antichrist or the Mahdi, savior of Islam, who rides in peacefully with a bow, signifying a position of strength, but with no arrows, so that he can deceive Israel into thinking he has peaceful intentions. So he is given a crown and declared King for his ability to negotiate peaceful agreements and goes about conguering and conquering by the deception of peace.
The "prominent" feature of the whole book of Revelation is that it is a revelation of Jesus Christ. It is not primarily about Antichrist, but secondarily so.
The tendency to think this book is mostly concerned with Antichrist, frogs, horns, dragons, hail, earthquakes, and other negative things is typical of people.
But "The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His slaves the things that must quickly take place; and He made it known by signs, sending it by His angel to His slave John ..." (Rev. 1:1)
It is not only a revelation belonging to Christ but a disclosure, an unveiling of Jesus Christ.
When this is grasped it is not difficult to appreciate that a prominent matter which is utmost on God's heart is the going forth of the conquering Gospel of Jesus Christ.
From our standpoint we are often too preoccupied with what will happen during the tribulation. We need to be lifted into God's heavenly viewpoint and see how crucial to history is that preeminent of the Gospel of peace going forth victoriously.
08 Sep 14
Originally posted by sonshipI don't see the hour of trial as meaning the tribulation of the last days, as I pointed out before.
It sounds like your major concern is merely to absolve yourself from all responsibility.
If there is no possibility of the escape of these things, then this waters down to nothing your inclination to watch and beseech the Lord that you would prevail to escape.
If there is no possibility that to keep the word of His endurance would qualify you to b ...[text shortened]... the other of the truth.
Both errors tend to want to absolve Christians from responsibility.
08 Sep 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipWe can have different viewpoints on what the white horse represents. But that would not prove a pre-tribulation rapture either. I believe my interpretation fits with other scripture about future prophesied events of the end time. But I admit that the church proclaiming the gospel of Christ to all the world could also fit with the endtime events, since that must take place first.
RJHinds submits -
[quote] [b]The First Seal - The White Horse
I believe the revealing of the White Horse and Rider is first, because it is the prominent feature that begins the endtimes events leading right in to the tribulations of those days. This Rider on the White Horse is the spirit of the Antichrist or the Mahdi, savior of Islam, who rides ...[text shortened]... d see how crucial to history is that preeminent of the Gospel of peace going forth victoriously.[/b]
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09 Sep 14
4 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsThe New Testament:
" ... I also will keep you from the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth."
RJHinds:
I don't see the hour of trial as meaning the tribulation of the last days, as I pointed out before.
I think "the hour of trial" is that special time in which the Lord said in Matthew 24:21.
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world until now, nor shall by any means ever occur." (Matt. 24:21)
Why do you believe "And immediately after the tribulation in those days ..." (v.29) refers to the great tribulation, but do not count "the hour of trial" to come upon the whole earth to be the great tribulation?
This seems rather arbitrary to me.
It seems forced only for the purpose of denying a possible pre-tribulation rapture as a reward to overcoming vigilant Christians.
Of course it is true that "tribulation" is mentioned in many ways in the New Testament, and not all have to mean that three and one half years of the close of this age.
But it seems curiously forced to arbitrarily dismiss Revelation 3:10 as not referring to that unique time.
On what grounds do you think Rev. 3:10's "hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth" is not that which the Lord spoke of in Matt. 24:21,29 ?
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09 Sep 14
From The Glorious Church by Watchman Nee
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n
Concering the Birth of the Man-child in Revelation 12 again.
Verse 5 says, "She brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod." This speaks of the millennial kingdom. The overcomers are the instrument that enables God to achieve His purpose. Revelation mentions shepherding "the nations with an iron rod" three times. First, 2:26-27 says, "And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; and he will shepherd them with an iron rod." This passage quite obviously refers to the overcomers in the church. The last mention of this phrase is 19:15, which says, "And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod." This passage refers to the Lord Jesus. To whom then does the passage in chapter twelve refer? It must refer either to the overcomers in the church or to the Lord Jesus. Is it possible that it refers to the Lord Jesus? No. (However, it is not wholly impossible, for later we will see that the Lord Jesus is included here.) Why is it not possible? First, the man-child was caught up to the throne of God immediately after he was born. Therefore, this could not be a reference to the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus was not caught up immediately after He was born. He lived thirty-three and a half years on this earth, died, resurrected, and then ascended to the heavens. For this reason we believe that the man-child refers to the overcomers in the church. It is the portion of the people in the church who are the overcomers. The man-child refers to them, not to the Lord Jesus. (However, the man-child does include the Lord Jesus, since the Lord Jesus was the first overcomer and all overcomers are included in the Lord Jesus.) The man-child and the mother are different, and yet they are also one. The overcomers differ from the church, but they are included in the church.
09 Sep 14
6 edits
Originally posted by sonship
The New Testament:
[b]" ... I also will keep you from the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth."
RJHinds:
I don't see the hour of trial as meaning the tribulation of the last days, as I pointed out before.
I think "the hour of ...[text shortened]... them who dwell on the earth" is not that which the Lord spoke of in Matt. 24:21,29 ?[/b]The hour of trial or testing can not be the Great Tribulation because the tribulation lasts longer than an hour. You know the Great Tribulation lasts for days.
The hour in Revelation 3:10 is the hour of Christ’s return and the trial may be the cross examination and Judgment by Christ of the wicked.
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
(Matthew 24:36 NASB)
Christ defines the hour of His return as a literal hour within the day of His return. Christ’s first mentioning of the hour of His return in the book of Revelation is in chapter 3, verse 3.
To the Church in Sardis:
So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
(Revelation 3:3 NASB)
To the church in Philadelphia:
Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
(Revelation 3:10 NASB)
Christ is speaking to two different churches, but the subject is the same (His coming judgment).
He tells one church to keep His Word. If they don’t, he will come like a thief in an unknown hour. He tells the other that if they do, they will be kept from the hour of testing or trial. Christ clarifies the hour in verse 3 as the hour of testing or trial in verse 10. Right after that, in verse 11, He says “I am coming quickly...”.
and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.” And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.”
(Revelation 14:7-8 NASB)
And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you.
“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
“Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
“Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Matthew 24:4, 9-14, 21-22, 29-31, 36-37, 42-51 NASB)
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 NASB)
HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!
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09 Sep 14
3 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
The hour of trial or testing can not be the Great Tribulation because the tribulation lasts longer than an hour. You know the Great Tribulation lasts for days.
You are not serious, are you ?
The Day of the Lord lasts longer than 24 hours also. Perhaps I need to prove to you that the day of the Lord lasts longer than one solar day.
The hour in Revelation 3:10 is the hour of Christ’s return and the trial may be the cross examination and Judgment by Christ of the wicked.
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
This I don't even understand what you could mean.
(Matthew 24:36 NASB)
Christ defines the hour of His return as a literal hour within the day of His return. Christ’s first mentioning of the hour of His return in the book of Revelation is in chapter 3, verse 3.
Tell me RJHinds. When Jesus said "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son that the Son may glorify You ..." (John 17:1)
Do you seriously think that that "hour" was over 60 minutes latter before Jesus was even upon the cross ?
When Jesus said "Truly truly, I say to you, An hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." (John 5:25)
Do you really think that "hour" was restricted to 60 minutes from the moment Jesus uttered these words ?
Let me give you a word of fellowship to help your reading of the Bible. I pass on to you what I learned from brother Witness Lee, whom you suspicion as not being in favor of your Christian interests.
You, seriously, should learn to PRAY over the Scriptures saying "Amen" to every line, every word, every phrase you read. You should learn to open your being and "Amen" every part of the Bible's utterances with as little a sense of preference as you can.
The Holy Spirit will do much to impress upon your mind how a passage should be taken.
Now I am NOT saying that our interpretations can be infallible. I am not saying that there is no way other to understand Revelation 3:10. But I think if you pray over the word of God, with an Amen to each phrase and line and word, you will TASTE in your spirit when the natural mind is dancing around or twisting a passage.
My conscience would not allow me to argue with a reasoning that the "hour" in Revelation 3:10 HAS to be no more than 60 minutes. This doesn't pass the spiritual smell test.
[quote] But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 NASB)
Amen. We should comfort one another with the words that ultimately we will all be with the Lord, taken one way or another in rapture.
I cannot "comfort" myself or you to the extent that I am comfortable NOT to heed His warnings that He is coming at a time when I least expect Him. This is too much comfort and might endanger the heart to reason -
"My Lord is delaying His coming."
Luke 12:45
English Standard Version
But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
New American Standard Bible
"But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
King James Bible
But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Holman Christian Standard Bible
But if that slave says in his heart, My master is delaying his coming,' and starts to beat the male and female slaves, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
09 Sep 14
2 edits
Originally posted by sonshipIf the Holy Bible says it is an hour and a day, then I believe it is an hour and a day. What proves that an hour is not an hour and a day is not a day?The hour of trial or testing can not be the Great Tribulation because the tribulation lasts longer than an hour. You know the Great Tribulation lasts for days.
You are not serious, are you ?
The Day of the Lord lasts longer than 24 hours also. Perhaps I need to prove to you that the day of the Lord lasts longer than one solar day. ...[text shortened]... ,' and starts to beat the male and female slaves, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
[/quote]
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
(Revelation 2:10 NASB)
What proof do you have that the tribulation mentioned here is not 10 days like it says? How long is an hour, a day, and ten days?
I'll stop here to await your answers.
09 Sep 14
5 edits
Originally posted by sonshipThe comfort is "about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope" (1 Thessalonians 4:13). God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus... the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.The hour of trial or testing can not be the Great Tribulation because the tribulation lasts longer than an hour. You know the Great Tribulation lasts for days.
You are not serious, are you ?
The Day of the Lord lasts longer than 24 hours also. Perhaps I need to prove to you that the day of the Lord lasts longer than one solar day. ...[text shortened]... ,' and starts to beat the male and female slaves, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
[/quote]
You should learn to read the Holy Bible and stop paying attention to that cult leader Witness Lee. The Holy Spirit can teach me regardless of whether I say AMEN or NOT.
If you expect Christ to come on September 22, 2014 at 1 PM then you are wrong. He is not coming on that day or hour.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!
09 Sep 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipSymbolism is nice in literature. Also it's nicely applied in any book that purports to be prophetic, since clarity of hindsight and human imagination can always be put to work to make the facts fit the fiction. Truly, what is the point of such cryptic passages as the one being discussed, if two believers can debate endlessly on their meaning and never come to a resolution? If one didn't know any better, one would think that god is "faking it."
You also apparently love your old fashion strawman.
Consult back with your say, 9th grade English class and re-call the use of something called symbolism.
09 Sep 14
Originally posted by RJHindsSee, this is crazy. You guys can't even establish what unit of time the Master of the Universe is using to within two orders of magnitude.
What proof do you have that the tribulation mentioned here is not 10 days like it says? How long is an hour, a day, and ten days?