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01 Sep 14
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Originally posted by KingOnPointIt is not an either / or matter to me.
Sonship,
Where you type the things that you do, are they somebody else's words that are giving us? Do you make up all the words yourself when you try to explain things?
I can go either way with confidence.
Some brothers opened up the gold mine.
When the concepts are grasped you can go in and explore the mine endlessly.
Some brothers gave us the key.
Once you have the key, you can unlock many things in the Scriptures.
The key is God's eternal purpose - Christ as out life and the church as our living.
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01 Sep 14
Originally posted by KingOnPointI think the point Nee was making was that in the original plan of God the entire nation was to be a kingdom of priests..
Sonship,
Is it true that only the sons of Aaron were allowed to be priests and not all of the Levites(sons of Levi)? You posted earlier that the Levites were priests right?
When the entire nation failed at the incident at Mr. Sinai and the golden calf, the tribe of Levi stuck to the original plan. And God secured that tribe as priests.
The principle of some overcomers as a remnant being obtained by God is repeated a number of times in the history of God's moving.
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01 Sep 14
Originally posted by KingOnPoint
Sonship,
Is it true that only the sons of Aaron were allowed to be priests and not all of the Levites(sons of Levi)? You posted earlier that the Levites were priests right?
Sonship,
Is it true that only the sons of Aaron were allowed to be priests and not all of the Levites(sons of Levi)? You posted earlier that the Levites were priests right?
Of the twelve tribes, when they went into the good land, 11 were alloted geographic portions as an inheritance. The exception was with the tribe of Levi. The Lord was said to be their inheritance.
See Deuteronomy 18:2 and surrounding passages.
New International Version
They shall have no inheritance among their fellow Israelites; the LORD is their inheritance, as he promised them.
New Living Translation
They will have no land of their own among the Israelites. The LORD himself is their special possession, just as he promised them.
English Standard Version
They shall have no inheritance among their brothers; the LORD is their inheritance, as he promised them.
New American Standard Bible
"They shall have no inheritance among their countrymen; the LORD is their inheritance, as He promised them.
01 Sep 14
1 edit
Originally posted by menace71Some believe that Revelation 12:1 is how the constellation Virgo appeared at the time of the birth of Christ, not the crucifixion.
I remember hearing that constellation Virgo was exactly in this position in the sky at the crusifiction (spelling) of Christ with the moon at her feet and the Sun at the top or something like that as a fulfillment of that
Manny
But if we use the dream of Joseph in Genesis 37:9-10 to interpret John's vision in Revelation 12, the sun and the moon represent the father and mother of the twelve children of Israel represented by the twelve stars. The women about to give birth to a Son or male child must then represent the nation of Israel from which the Messiah was to be born that would rule the nations with a rod of iron, but first is caught up to God and His throne. Satan, who wished to destroy the Son and the seed of the woman, is represented by the dragon in the vision.
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Originally posted by RJHinds
I suppose the group of overcomers are from Witness Lee's and Watchman Nee's recovered local churches. Is that the point of all this?
The passage is prophecy. Some group of overcomers who "loved not their soul-life even unto death" will be resurrected and raptured before the one thousand two hundred and sixty days of the great triublation.
This particular pre-tribulation rapture seems to be of those who have died, indicated by the words "loved not their soul-life even unto death".
The PRINCIPLE of their victory is applicable to all of us. We Christians overcome:
1.) By the redemptive blood of Christ the Lamb.
2.) By believing and proclaiming the divine facts of God's word. That is His promises become the word of our testimony.
IE. We been crucified with Christ.
We have been raised with Christ too.
We are seated with Christ.
It is no longer we who live but Christ who lives within us.
We are partakers of the divine nature.
His seed dwells in us and we cannot sin because of His seed.
Satan is crushed under our feet.
We are one in Christ and cannot be divided.
This is only a small sample of the many many divine facts that we Christians must stand upon as the word of our testimony.
3.) We must deny the fallen self and enjoy Christ instead - not loving our soul-life even unto death.
So the prophesy of resurrection and rapture of the man-child is specific. But the PRINCIPLE of the man-child's overcoming is certainly for all the saints.
Now I am not sure, but the tone of your question may contain an innuendo. And that is the accusation that Watchman Nee and Witness Lee were self-serving. I could be wrong, but you could be hinting that Nee and Lee were only interested in their own PRIVATE following for their own empire within Christianity.
I am sorry if you have this suspicion for I know it is a false one. But when some Christians have known nothing else but turfs and divisions it stands to reason that if a genuine move of God comes along [as the result of desperate prayers of His people] they might also want to assume that it is just someone else's turf.
I think this attitude expressed by Witness Lee shows very well how the tribes of Gad and Dan were examples about how we should consider our brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ.
The Life Study of Genesis by Witness Lee
Message One Hundred Two
BEING MATURED
THE MANIFESTATION OF MATURITY
Verse 21 also says, "And he came with the heads of the people, he executed the justice of the Lord, and his ordinances with Israel" (Heb.). Gad came with the heads of the people, the leaders, to take the rest of the good land to execute the justice of the Lord in dividing the land and His ordinances with Israel (Josh. 22:1-5). Dan's failure was his pride. When he gained more land, he became proud and set up another center of worship. He did not care for his brothers. In your spiritual experience, you must beware of pride when you gain more land, more of Christ. Never set up another center of worship. On the contrary, you must take care of your brothers. Do not say, "I have won the victory. I have more land, more Christ. I don't care about the others. I will stay here to enjoy my victory." If you do this, you will be defeated. Even though you have gained the land, you must press on to take care of the need of your brothers. You have obtained your portion, but what about the portion of your brothers? You must fight the battle to get the rest of the land so that all your brothers may have their share. To enjoy your portion of the land without helping your brothers obtain their portion would not be just. It would not be the execution of God's justice. You must go on with the other leaders to fight the battle for the rest of the land. Then all your brothers will have a portion. To do this is to execute the justice of the Lord and to keep His ordinances with Israel.
Gad had a number of good points. He recovered the victory, he was enlarged, and he tore the enemy to pieces. Furthermore, although he provided a place for himself, he did not enjoy it until he helped his brothers gain their portion. He went on with them to fight until everyone had a portion. This was the execution of the justice of the Lord and of His ordinances with Israel. Again I say, Dan warns us not to be proud, to be independent, or to set up another center of worship. Gad helps us to know that even after we have gained the victory and have been enlarged, we should not forget our brothers. We should not rest in our portion until we have helped our brothers gain their portion. To win a spiritual victory and to gain Christ is truly wonderful. But beware of pride. You may set up a separate worship center, neglecting your brothers. Never do this. Do not enjoy the portion you have gained until you have helped your brothers win theirs. Do not be proud and do not forget your brothers. Hearing this should be a help to us all. Now we know what we should do after gaining the victory of Christ. We should not establish another center, but we should take care of our brothers, fighting for the sake of their portion.
To directly answer your subtle question -
No, I do not have any sense of automatic guarantee that I will be an overcomer just because I meet with a local church.
I do have a feeling that to whom much is given much will be expected. If I were still in the denominations expecting only to die and one day "go to heaven" then I would not feel so responsible before Christ. That is all the pastors knew, and ever told us.
But being under this rich ministry from God recovering neglected truths, I have to admit that God has shown me something more. And correspondingly I feel more responsible.
At any rate, since none of us have a guarantee of being overcomers we should simply heed what Jesus said -
"He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
01 Sep 14
Originally posted by sonshipI suppose the group of overcomers are from Witness Lee's and Watchman Nee's recovered local churches. Is that the point of all this?
The passage is [b]prophecy. Some group of overcomers who "loved not their soul-life even unto death" will be resurrected and raptured before the one thousand two hundred and sixty days of the g ...[text shortened]... sus said -
"He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." [/b]
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
“Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.”
(Matthew 24:29-31, 40-42)
Jesus, the Lamb of God, comes to gather the elect and to rapture the elect remaining alive after the tibulation. All the tribes of the earth mourn because they know the great day of His wrath is coming upon them.
“But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”
(1 Thessalonians 5:1-6)
“And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;” And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”
(Revelation 6:12-17)
The Lamb's wrath and God’s wrath does not come until after the tribulation of the opening of the first five seals. The great day of his wrath (the Day of the Lord) comes after the opening of the sixth seal. The rapture takes place just before God and the Lamb pours out their wrath.
After the Tribulation
Satan is working behind the scenes to set up a one world government and one world religion in preparation for the Antichrist. He has also deceived modern evangelical Christians into believing that they will be removed from this earth before the great tribulation takes place. This doctrine, known as the pre-tribulation rapture, teaches that Christ may return at any moment, and that there will be no signs of his coming. As a result of this deception, most Christians are completely unprepared for what the Bible has warned us is coming.
In this hard-hitting documentary, film-maker Paul Wittenberger (What in the World are They Spraying? and The Great Culling), Pastor Steven L Anderson, Pastor Roger Jimenez, and creation scientist Kent Hovind, prove from the King James Bible that the rapture will take place AFTER THE TRIBULATION but before God pours out his wrath upon this earth. They also expose Satan's plans for a global government and new world order.
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Originally posted by RJHinds
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
“Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.”
The first passage is Matthew 24:29-31.
The second passage is Matthew 24:41-43.
The verses up to verse 31 are the Lord's teaching to the disciples as constuents of the nation of Israel. They speak of Christ's return from the standpoint of Israel's national salvation.
The verses from 32 and on are the Lord's teaching to the disciples as constituents of the new covenant church.
You are making the mistake of ignoring this line of demarcation [up to verse 31] followed by [verse 32 and afterwards].
From the standpoint of the church, what is taught concerning His coming is the watching and readiness spoken of in verses 41-44. That is a pre-great tribulation rapture.
One additional way I would prove this is with the information given in Luke about WHERE the ones stolen suddenly are taken. Add to you comprehension of Matthew 24:41-42 these details in Luke.
" I tell you, In that night there will be two on one bed; the one is taken and the other will be left. There will be two women grinding together; the one will be taken but the other will be left. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.
And they answered and said to Him, WHERE, Lord? [my emphasis] And He said to them, Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered together." (Luke 17:34-37 sister passage to Matthew 24:41-42)
The ones separated are taken to where the body is which is where the vultures will be gathered together. This speaks of the battle of Armageddon. The victorious birds of prey will accompany Jesus Christ to attack the stinking corpse of DEATH which is Antichrist and his armies.
They are rewarded by being raptured OUT of the hour of trial (Rev. 3:10)
They are rewarded by escaping the things that are coming to stand before the Son of Man (Luke 21:36) in obedience to His charge to watch and pray that they may escape.
They are rewarded also to be a part of Christ's victorious army, a remnant, as gathering birds of prey to accompany Him to Antichrist's final defeat. This is seen in the bridal army accompanying Christ in Revelation chapter 19.
These have already learned the lessons of denying the soul life to follow the Lord as seen in -
1.) The man-child of Revelation 12.
2.) The firstfruits of Revelation 14.
3.) More immediately the preceeding verse to Luke 17:34-36 about the two women and two men. That is this:
"Whoever seeks to preserve his soul-life will lose it, and whoever loses it will preserve it alive. I tell you, in that night there will be two on one bed; ... etc. etc. etc." (Luke 17:33,34a)
Consult again Matthew 24:27,28 - "For just as the lightening comes from the east and shines to the west so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Where the corpse is, there will the vultures be gathered together."
In Christ's open coming with cataclysmic display at the end of the tribulation the overcomers join Him as a reward to defeat Antichrist the enemy of Israel and of the Christians.
Footnote 28(1) for Matthew 24:28 of the RcV reads.
Taken in context, vv.15 and 21 imply that at the end of this age Antichrist will be the cause of the great tribulation. It is he who will need to be judged and destroyed. All people in Adam are dead (1 Cor. 15:22); thus, the evil Antichrist, who with his evil armies will war against the Lord at Armageddon (Rev. 19:17-21), is in the eyes of the Lord a stinking corpse, good for the vultures' appetite. Furthermore, in the Scriptures both the Lord and those who trust in Him are likened to flying eagles (Exo. 19:4; Deut. 32:11; Isa. 40:31), and the swift, destroying armies are likened to flying eagles (Deut. 28:49; Hosea 8:1). Hence, the vultures here, being predatory birds of eagle kind, refer undoubtedly to Christ and His overcomers, who will come as a swift, flying army to war against Antichrist and his armies and destroy them at Armageddon, thus executing God's judgment upon them. This indicates not only that at His appearing, Christ with His overcoming saints will appear in the place where Antichrist is with his armies, but also that Christ with His overcomers will appear swiftly from the air like vultures. This corresponds with the flash of lightening in the foregoing verse."
The selection to be rewarded to join Christ in the end of the great tribulation to crush Antichrist at Armageddon is linked with the reward that pre-great tribulation saints were rewarded with early rapture.
This does not mean that only saints raptured before the great tribulation will be rewarded to accompany Christ in the battle of Armageddon. It does mean the only those He deems as overcomers will be rewarded with that honor.
Compare the "THEY" who loved not their soul-life even unto death to be raptured before the one thousand two hundred and sixty days in Revelation 12 with those taken suddenly who were working or sleeping of whom the Lord said - "Whoever seeks to preserve his soul-life will lose it. and whoever loses it will preserve it alive. I tell you, in that night there will be two on a bed; the one is taken and the other will be left .... etc. etc." (Luke 17:34,35)
There is more.
Just look at these marvelous passages the brother submits.
(Matthew 24:29-31, 40-42)
Jesus, the Lamb of God, comes to gather the elect and to rapture the elect remaining alive after the tibulation. All the tribes of the earth mourn because they know the great day of His wrath is coming upon them.
“But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”
(1 Thessalonians 5:1-6)
Do they prove that the man-child or the firstfruits are not raptured before the beginning of the great tribulation ? I think no.
There is some ground which conceivably could cause a Bible reader to think there is only one rapture at the end of the great tribulation. I consider RJHind's point here valid. But I will speak to it latter.
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I do believe that I have demonstrated that accompanying Christ to the battle of Armageddon is a reward. There will be an enjoyment of the soul with those who accompany Christ to the place where the corpse is and the eagles gather together.
But WHY is it necessary to think that these ones were taken to the Lord before the great tribulation? How does this reward to accompany Jesus have anything to do with when they were raptured?
The short answer is that before the one thousand and two hundred and sixty days, the overcomers (at least the one who will be in paradise and resurrected and raptured) are raptured.
Armageddon should come at the END of the one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
The corporate man-child is raptured BEFORE -
"And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
AND ... the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days." (Rev. 12:5,6)
This man-child who accompanies Christ in STRONG reigning (ie. with an iron rod) is not taken at the END of the great tribulation but before as seen in verses 5 and 6.
Of course the way to deny this is to argue that that man-child is not a group of overcomers. That, however, is not a good interpretation.
Once the man-child goes up and Satan is subsequently driven down out of Heaven we have this proclamation -
"And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him ... ... etc. etc. "(v.10,11a)
Who is the "they" ?
Who else in the whole chapter 12 qualifies to be described in terms of what "they" have accomplished in verses 10 and 11 ?
The WOMAN is a sign.
Her CHILD is also a sign.
The Woman is a collective.
The CHILD is also a collective - a stronger collective within and part of the whole weaker collective. These are the overcomers. And they are raptured at the start, not the end, of the one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Now we have been told for certain that all authority was put into the hands of Jesus Christ by the time He had resurrected and was going to ascend to Heaven (Matt. 28:18).
So in a sense "Now has come ... the authority of His Christ" cannot strictly be said to have arrived ONLY at the beginning of the great tribulation.
But, Christ is made the head over all things "to the church" .
IE. "And He subjected all things under His feet and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church, Which is His Body, the fullness of the One who fills all in all." (Ephesians 1:22,23)
Do not take this word for granted - "TO THE CHURCH" implies a kind of transmission. This means Christ's headship is to be transmitted DOWN from Himself as the Head of the Body to at least an overcoming portion of the Body - "the head over all things TO THE CHURCH" .
This implies a transmission of Christ's authority down from Himself into and TO the church. And this transmission has been taking place over the centuries.
At the end of this age it will reach a critical point at the rapture of the corporate overcomers. And having His authority reach down TO those obedience and overcoming saints in a critical mass, the proclamation goes out -
"Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, ..."
This does not mean that Christ's authority as Head and His kingdom were non-existent from Matthew 28. It means that the transmission "to the church" has finally come down in critical mass. That is the critical mass that Satan has been fighting against for 20 centuries.
The accuser is cast down and the kingdom has come in practical co-inheritance to the church. At least it has come to a remnant group of stronger overcoming ones.
Through the centuries from the quantity of believers who have lived and died, God reserves the QUALITY He needs to have some reign with Christ in the millennium.
02 Sep 14
3 edits
Originally posted by sonshipIn reference to your statement on Matthew 24, there is no indication that there is a line of demarcation between verses 31 and 32 that divide the Nation of Israel from the New Covenant Church. The verses before 32 don't just pertain to the Nation of Israel, because Jesus speaks of "all tribes of the earth" and not just the tribes of Israel. He also speaks of the gathering of "His elect" from everywhere, not just from the nation of Israel.
[quote] “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man com ...[text shortened]... d of the great tribulation. I consider RJHind's point here valid. But I will speak to it latter.
Also there is no delivering from the tribulation either, because Jesus says in verse 9 that "they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name." Then he goes on to say in verse 13 that those enduring to the end of this tribulation will be saved.
They certainly are not appointed to receive the wrath of God and the Lamb, but that comes after the tribulation.
Mark 13:9-27 is a parallel account of the same statements from Jesus.
“But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them. The gospel must first be preached to all the nations. When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit. Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will. Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.
(Mark 13:9-13, 19-20, 24-27 NASB)
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Originally posted by RJHinds
In reference to your statement on Matthew 24, there is no indication that there is a line of demarcation between verses 31 and 32 that divide the Nation of Israel from the New Covenant Church.
Yes, I think there is.
This was a unique situation because the original twelve disciples did have this kind of dual status.
It makes sense that the Lord would address their questions from two standpoints.
The verses before 32 don't just pertain to the Nation of Israel, because Jesus speaks of "all tribes of the earth" and not just the tribes of Israel. He also speaks of the gathering of "His elect" from everywhere, not just from the nation of Israel.
They pertain to the disciples with a view towards their status as Israelites awaiting messianic promises.
Now that passage that you allude to, about all the tribes mourning, corresponds to the book of Zechariah. Whereas some expositors think it is the tribes of the earth, meaning all the peoples on the planet, the passage to which it connects is about the TWELVE TRIBES of Israel mouring over their coming Messiah.
Consider Zechariah's prophecy and how Jesus is referring to it.
Zechariah 12:8 -12
In that day Jehovah will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of Jehovah before them. (v.8)
And in that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. (v.9)
And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplication; and they will look upon Me, whom they have pierced; and they will wail over Him with wailing as for an only son and cry bitterly over Him with bitter crying as for a firstborn son.(v.10)
In that day there will be great wailing in Jerusalem, like the wailing of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. (v.11)
And the land will wail, every family by itself: the family of the house of David ny itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan bby itself, and their wives by themselves; (v.12)
The family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself; and their wives by themselves." (v.14)
Now we compare to two New Testament verses:
"And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, ... etc. And at that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then ALL THE TRIBES OF THE LAND [that is the Holy Land] will mourn [just as Zechariah predicted] and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matt. 24:30,31)
Jesus is referring back to the mourning of the Israelites. It stands to reason that if Jesus sets down on one particular PLACE on the planet, it is THERE that they will see Him specifically. The tribes of the land over which He descends would have local geographic witness.
The other reference to Zechariah's prophesy is Revelation 1:7
"Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the land will mourn over Him. Yes, amen."
This too is the mouring of the Israelites of the Holy Land who pierced Christ when they demanded that He be crucified. They now realize that they pierced through the Son of God.
" ... and they will [ the inhabitants of Jerusalem ] look upon Me, [Jehovah God ] whom they have pierced; and they will MOURN over Him with bitter crying ... etc." (Zech. 12:10)
As I stated, up to Matthew 24:31 the teaching is about the Lord's coming mainly in relation to the nation of Israel.
I have to stop here for technical reasons.
03 Sep 14
Originally posted by sonshipThe statements "all tribes of the earth" and "His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven" refers to ALL, not some. Look it up in a dictionary, if you don't understand the difference between "ALL" and "some".In reference to your statement on Matthew 24, there is no indication that there is a line of demarcation between verses 31 and 32 that divide the Nation of Israel from the New Covenant Church.
Yes, I think there is.
This was a unique situation because the original twelve disciples did have this kind of dual status.
It makes sense t ...[text shortened]... ming mainly in relation to the nation of Israel.
I have to stop here for technical reasons.
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03 Sep 14
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Originally posted by RJHinds
The statements "all tribes of the earth" and "His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven" refers to ALL, not some. Look it up in a dictionary, if you don't understand the difference between "ALL" and "some".
The words "all the tribes" refers to the tribes in the "land" of Israel - thus "all the tribes of the land" . This however does not limit the Messiah's promise to gather His elect from the four winds.
The first promise is about those who will see the sign of the Son of Man appearing in heaven and begin to mourn.
The second promise is about His ancient promise to gather the scattered Israelites from over the earth back to the Holy Land.
Concerning the first promise in verse 30, I admit that a good number of English translations do read "all the tribes of the earth". But here are some that read something like the Rcv's "all the tribes of the land"
International Standard Version
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all 'the tribes of the land will mourn' when they see 'the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven' with power and great glory.
Darby Bible Translation
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the land lament, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The Emphasized Bible has
And |then| will be displayed - the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, And |then| will smite thier breasts - All (a) the tribes of the earth (b) ...
The (b) besides "earth" in the footnote says:
Or: "land," Zech xii. 18
While the majority of English versions have earth the translator of the Emphasized Bible was astute to mention that the reference was to Zechariah 12:18 where "and the land will wail ... " would support the prediction that the Holy Land is being referred to.
The word there [Strong's Concordance # 1093] is in the King James as land in some of these cases:
Matt. 2:6 - "thou Bethlehem in the land of Judah ..."
Matt. 2:20 - " ... mother, and go into the land of Israel"
Matt. 2:21 - "and came into the land of Israel"
Matt. 4:15 - "the land of Zebulon"
Matt. 4:15 - "Zebulon, the land of Nephthalim"
Matt. 10:15 - "for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha"
Matt. 11:24 - " more tolerable for the land of Sodom"
Matt. 27:45 - "there was darkness over the land"
Matt. 14:34 - "they came into the land of Gennesarot"
In addition you would see land for that Greek word in the KJV in such places as John 3:22; 6:21; 21:8,9; 21:11; Luke 21:23; Acts 7:3;7:4 twice; 7:6; 7:11; 7:29; 7:36; 7:40; 13:19 twice; 27:39; 27:43; 27:44; Heb. 8:9; Heb. 11:9; Heb. 11:29 - "dry land"; Jude 5.
The second promise concerning the gathering of the Lord's elect from the four winds refers to Christ gathering to the Holy Land the scattered Jews from all parts of the earth. This He promised in 23:37 -
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!" (Matt. 23:37)
This promise of gathering the scattered Jews is an ancient promise of God spoken in Deut. 30:3-5; Isa. 43:5-7; 49:9-13; 32-26; 51:11; 56:8; 60:4; 62:10-12; 27:13; Ezek. 34:13; 37:21; 28:25.
Therefore in this section up to verse 31 the Lord Jesus speaks of His return with a focus on His Old Testament promises to the nation of Israel, for after all, His original disciples had that national concern in mind along with being curious about their status as members of the church.
03 Sep 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipOkay, the word can mean "land, earth, ground, country" according to Strong's concordance. However, one must use common sense when translating words with different meanngs.The statements "all tribes of the earth" and "His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven" refers to ALL, not some. Look it up in a dictionary, if you don't understand the difference between "ALL" and "some".
The words [b]"all the tribes" refers to the tribes in the "land" o ...[text shortened]... t national concern in mind along with being curious about their status as members of the church.[/b]
In Matthew 24:35 the phrase "Heaven and earth will pass away" could also be translated as "Heaven and land", but nobody does. So when you look at the context of Matthew 24, we see that "ALL the tribes" and "His elect" are gathered from all over the earth and from one end of the heavens to the other(Matthew 24:31).
Therefore, we see Jesus is referring to more that just the tribes and His elect out of the land of Israel, because He has been referring to the tribulation period when He mentions "nation will rise against nation, and kingdom agaist kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes" (Matthew 24:7). Also about enduring to the end to be saved... "And the gospel will preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come (Matthew 24:13-14).
In any case, this gathering together of His elect that have died takes place after the tribulation and then the rapture of those remaining alive.
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
(1 Thessalonians 4:17 NASB)
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03 Sep 14
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
Okay, the word can mean "land, earth, ground, country" according to Strong's concordance. However, one must use common sense when translating words with different meanngs.
That is correct. And the "common sense" being used by some translators is this: As Jesus is referring to the prophetic words of Zechariah 12:12 it is the Jewish tribes of the LAND of the Jews that Jesus is referring to.
I'll grant you that this may be a minority view.
However, there is NOTHING about Zechariah 12:12 - "And the land will wail, every family by itself ..." which somehow causes us not to understand Christ will "destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem" (v.9)
Just because the tribes of the "land" wail simply does not force us to view that Christ will NOT be dealing with "all the nations" in the preceding verse. There is no reason why the limits of one passage has to mean the limits of another in Zechariah 12 or in Mathew 24 .
In Matthew 24:35 the phrase "Heaven and earth will pass away" could also be translated as "Heaven and land", but nobody does.
You are speaking of the translators common sense. There is no reason why Jesus affirming Zechariah's prophecy that the land will wail that forces the understanding that "heaven and LAND" has to be read in verse 34.
So when you look at the context of Matthew 24, we see that "ALL the tribes" and "His elect" are gathered from all over the earth and from one end of the heavens to the other(Matthew 24:31).
When Zechariah predicts that "And the land will wail" (Zech. 12:12) family by family this does not insist that Christ could not [b]"seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem" (v.9).
And neither does "all the tribes of the land will mourn" in Matthew 24:30 insist that "nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (v.7) cannot be understood to cover a vaster geographic area.
Your argument that understanding the Holy Land in "all the tribes of the land" forces the limitation everywhere else in Matthew 24 simply does not have to follow.
And the glory, the universality of Christ's coming, and His world related influenced is simply not harmed just because we understand all the tribes of the good land, the Holy Land mourn at the sight of Christ coming on the clouds.
As for verse 31 - "And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His chosen together from the four winds from one end of the heavens to the other end" I did use to believe referred to the rapture of the church. But I changed my mind.
Since God so often promised to re-gather His elect in the Old Testament back to the promised land, it is possible that this gathering takes place over a longer period. Christ has a thousand years of reigning.
Therefore it is entirely plausible that in a day He could rapture His church but over a subsequent longer time gather His elect Jewish people back to the promise land.
After verse 31 ends, beginning with verse 32 the tone of things is more spiritual than before.
The preparations for His coming before verse 31 are more physical and outward in nature -
If you are in Judea you have to flee (v.16).
If your on the housetop don't come down (v.17).
If your in the field don't go back to the house for a garment (v.18).
If you are pregnant or nursing it will be especially difficult (v.19).
If pray that it won't happen on the Jewish Sabbath (v.20).
These warnings are rather physical and tied to the Jews of the land.
But after verse 32 the matters of readiness are more spiritual in nature.
Only the Father knows the time (v.36).
Men will be carried away by indulgence and deficient spiritual vigilance (v.37,38)
Men will be ignorant that judgment is right upon them (v.38,39).
One man in inwardly proper before God and one is not (v.40)
You see outwardly there is no discernable difference. The vital difference is within the heart, within the human spirit -
"Two women will be grinding at the mill, one is taken and one is left."
This speaks more to spiritual vitality appropriate to the church life.
The inquiring disciples have both statuses. It makes sense that Jesus would refer to the promises to their national concerns as Israel and to their concerns as members of His new covenant EKKLESIA.
I think the dividing line is after verse 31. However, since the national Messiah is also a important matter, in the first section we do have warnings about false prophets and false messiahs -
"For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ, and they will lead many astray. " (v.5)
"And many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray." (v.11)
And I am not at all advocating that the church people could be served as well from such warnings.
Now I have to stop here.