01 Jul 14
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Originally posted by sonshiphttp://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/booklets/revelation.htmlOneness Pentecostal believers deny the Trinity and teach that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are all one person. They sometimes quote Isaiah 9:6 in their attempt to prove their position.
When someone teaches that when the Father is here, the Son and the Holy Spirit is not and
When the Son is here, the Father and the Holy Sp ...[text shortened]... e for examination -
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/booklets/revelation.html
Let me make a comment concerning another portion of the above booklet.
F. All Three Are One
3. The Last Adam Became a Life-giving Spirit
First Corinthians 15:45 states: “The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit” (ASV). Who is the last Adam? Jesus. Who is the life-giving Spirit? The Holy Spirit. Besides the Holy Spirit, there is no other spirit that gives life. This verse clearly tells us that Jesus, who is called in the Bible the last Adam, became the life-giving Spirit. Hence, to say that the Lord Jesus is also the Holy Spirit is according to the Bible’s clear revelation.
According to the orthodox Christian view this is not saying that Jesus is the Holy Spirit. This is Paul's contrast with the first Adam becoming the father of all human descendants because he gave life to the natural body, whereas the last Adam, Christ, became our spiritual father by giving eternal life to our spiritual body.
If all three are one Person, then why does Paul end a letter like this?
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
(2 Corinthians 13:14 KJV)
Testimonies Against the Unholy Trinity of Witness Lee, The Local Church and Living Stream Ministry
Below are statements from one person.
"Thanks for your website. I was in the LC from the age of ten to 21, 1975-86, I think....
For me, the main problem with the cult is the way it ruins people. The doctrinal matters are harder to pin on them, because Lee has said just about everything and its opposite. I even remember him bragging in trainings about being able to contradict himself and get away with it. The example I recall is him advocating tritheism in one long message, and in the next, modalism. He said both were biblical. He seemed to revel in the nonsense of it all."
You can read many more testimonies at the link below:
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Testimoniesoftruth.htm
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03 Jul 14
9 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
First Corinthians 15:45 states: “The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit” (ASV). Who is the last Adam? Jesus. Who is the life-giving Spirit? The Holy Spirit. Besides the Holy Spirit, there is no other spirit that gives life. This verse clearly tells us that Jesus, who is called in the Bible the last Adam, became the life-giving Spirit. Hence, to say that the Lord Jesus is also the Holy Spirit is according to the Bible’s clear revelation.
First Corinthians 15:45 says that "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit".
I wrote that the pure word of God is to be regarded as more important than any creedal formula. For the sake of what some brothers may announce as the orthodox creedal formula we are not willing to make 1 Cor. 15:45 state that "the last Adam did [NOT BECOME] a life giving Spirit".
The pure statements of Scripture take precedence over creeds no matter how useful and helpful they may be.
The founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, W.H. Griffith Thomas speaks of this mysterious God in relation to Christ and the Spirit in this way:
"But however difficult it may be to express the difference between Christ and the Spirit regarded as within God Himself, no difficulty must allow us to ignore the plain teaching of the New Testament and the personal testimony of Christian consciousness."
Here is the wider context of his wise comment:
The threefold distinction in God, which is expressed by the word "Trinity," is the attempt of man to conceive and express the meaning of the Infinite God in terms of Jesus Christ, and we believe that the use of the phrase, "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit," is the very best rendering of the mystery that can be given .... The true meaning of Trinitarian doctrine, therefore, is not separate spheres of Divine operation in connection with each Person, but the united and inclusive operations of the three Persons in one God .... When we turn to St. Paul, we find substantially the same set of ideas. The language about the indwelling of Christ and of the Spirit is practically identical .... We are therefore not at all surprised at the variation of the theological expression connected with the Holy Spirit. Sometimes He is regarded as a separate Personality within the Godhead, having a self-consciousness separate from and yet connected with Jesus and the Father. At other times the Spirit is used for the Name of God's own personal activity, as He dwells in the soul of man. But however difficult it may be to express the difference between Christ and the Spirit regarded as within God Himself, no difficulty must allow us to ignore the plain teaching of the New Testament and the personal testimony of Christian consciousness [EDITED]. In our Lord's discourse, while He distinguished between the relations of the Father and the Spirit with Himself to the disciples, yet there is no essential difference or separation. Whether the Father lives or the Son lives; whether the Father comes or the Son comes; whether the Father gives the SPirit or the Son gives Him, the essential relationship is the same. But while closely and intimately connected, Christ and the Spirit are never identical .... It is essential to preserve with care both sides of this truth. Christ and the Spirit are different yet the same, the same yet different. Perhaps the best expression we can give is that while their Personalities are never identical, their presence always is.
[W.H. Griffith Thomas, The Holy Spirit of God pp.138, 142-144]
According to the orthodox Christian view this is not saying that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.
Griffith Thomas, the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, a conservative Seminary is quite orthodox enough as a theologian. And as he does his best to expound on this mysterious God, he and Witness Lee both realize -
"It is essential to preserve with care both sides of the truth. Christ and the Spirit are different yet the same, the same yet different."
Your Open Letter was sloppy in its rush to judgment by isolating only parts of Witness Lee's voluminous comments on the nature of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Did Witness Lee stress equally that there was a distinction between the Lord and the Spirit as well?
IE. this note on Matthew 3:1 where the it says "And having been baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him."
Witness Lee wrote:
"Before the Spirit of God descended and came upon Him, the Lord Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). This proves that at the time of His baptism He already had the Spirit of God within Him. The Spirit's being within Him was for His birth. Now for His ministry the Spirit of God descended upon Him. This was the fulfillment of Isa. 61:1; 4:1; and Psa. 45:7, and was carried out to anoint the new King and introduce Him to His people."
Those who are not sloppy and do more honest research can see that Witness Lee also spoke of the Holy Spirit as distinct, indwelling Christ and descending upon Him anointing Him as the Scripture speaks.
RJHinds explains -
This is Paul's contrast with the first Adam becoming the father of all human descendants because he gave life to the natural body, whereas the last Adam, Christ, became our spiritual father by giving eternal life to our spiritual body.
You are still ringing false alarms based on sloppy and biased vigilante style hype. They must be upset with Witness Lee for other reasons.
If you would like to speak about Christian tradition and orthodoxy we could refer all the way back to Hermas (A.D. 40-150?). He was believed to be a friend of the Paul mentioned in Romans 16:14. He is also considered by some to be a contemporary of Clement of Rome mentioned in Phil 4:3. As Paul was faithful to express the mystery of God to include "Now the Lord is the Spirit ... the Lord, the Spirit" Hermas wrote something quite similar in The Shepherd of Hermas, Similitude 9:1
" I wish to explain to you what the Holy Spirit that spoke with you in the form of the church showed you. for that Spirit is the Son of God."
You attempt to say that the life giving Spirit of First Corinthians only has to do with resurrection of the physical body. This is ridiculously limited. The giving of life to our mortal bodies by the Spirit is also related to overcoming the motions of sins in our fallen bodies in THIS LIFE before the resurrection.
"And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your moral bodies through His Spirit who indwells you. So then, brothers, we are debtors not to the flesh to live according to the flesh;
For if you live according to the flesh, you must die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live." (Rom. 8:11-13)
As you should be able to see, Paul is speaking of the giving of the Divine Life to our mortal bodies THIS side of the grave. That is why the Christian can utilize the life giving Holy Spirit to put to death, THIS SIDE of physical resurrection, "the practices of the body".
And those practices were outlined in the previous chapter 7.
Relegating First Corinthians 15:45 only to physical resurrection after physical death is not orthodox Christian teaching. How can you use such truncated exegesis to nullify the gospel that Christians are to enjoy the power of the life giving Holy Spirit immediately after regeneration ?
The truth of the matter is that the divine life of the Holy Spirit is imparted into the born again human spirit so that Paul can say on THIS SIDE of physical death - "The mind set on the spirit is life and peace" (Rom. 8:6)
Paul says prior to our physical death the human spirit is life - "But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness." (8:10)
My human spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:17). And my human spirit is today divine life because of justification, because Christ is my righteousness.
You should not regard postponing the enjoyment of divine life until the resurrection, as more "orthodox" than what Romans teaches and Witness Lee echoes ?
These signers of the Open Letter were mostly lead to premature conclusions because they trusted a few ringleaders who they thought must know what they were talking about. But they did sloppy research and misrepresent Witness Lee and actually the pure word of the Scripture as well.
If all three are one Person, then why does Paul end a letter like this?
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
The obvious answer is that we believe both. And Witness Lee did affirm both and encourage Christians to believe both. That is that the Three of the Triune God are distinct and also the same. And there is ONE God.
What you need to learn more about is the two aspects of the Trinity:
1.) The essential Trinity.
2.) The economical Trinity.
According to the truth of the essential Trinity Witness Lee affirmed with the Bible that the Spirit as the Third of the Triune God is eternal (Hebrews 9:14) -
And according to the truth of the economical Trinity Witness Lee affirmed with the Bible that the last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45)
Lee's note on Hebrews 9:14 does not teach that there was no eternal Spirit before the last Adam became a life giving Spirit....
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03 Jul 14
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Witness Lee's non Modalistic comment on the eternal Spirit from Hebrews 9:14 -
"On the cross Christ offered Himself to God in the human body (10:5, 10), which was under the limitation of time. But He offered HImself through the eternal Spirit, who is of eternity and is not under the limitation of time. Hence, in the eyes of God, Christ as the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8). His offering was once for all (7:27), and the redemption consummated through His death is eternal (v.12), having an eternal effect. The span of redemption fully covers the span of sin ..."
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03 Jul 14
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Originally posted by RJHindsRJHinds,
Testimonies Against the Unholy Trinity of Witness Lee, The Local Church and Living Stream Ministry
Below are statements from one person.
[b]"Thanks for your website. I was in the LC from the age of ten to 21, 1975-86, I think....
For me, the main problem with the cult is the way it ruins people. The doctrinal matters are harder to pin on them, beca ...[text shortened]... any more testimonies at the link below:
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Testimoniesoftruth.htm
Please Define "The Unholy Trinty of Witness Lee"
Exactly what is "unholy" about anything Witness Lee said concerning the Triune God ?
And while you are at that here are some of the theologians who have stated that they found no problem with Witness Lee's presentation of major Christian themes:
David Aikman Phd.
"...a significant number of distinguished scholars take the view that the doctrines of the Local Church do in fact coincide with historic Trinitarian Christianity."
Peter Kuzmic, Thd.
"...the larger evangelical community in this country and elsewhere will come to realize that your cause is right..."
Fuller Theological Seminary's
Richard J. Mouw, Ph.D.
Howard J. Loewen, Ph.D.
Veli-Matti Kärkkäinen, Th.D.
"In regard to their teaching and testimony concerning God, the Trinity, the person and work of Christ, the Bible, salvation, and the oneness and unity of the Church, the Body of Christ, we found them to be unequivocally orthodox."
Peter Kerridge -
"This ministry is entirely orthodox and to suggest otherwise is to willfully misrepresent them and impede the church's mission."
More testimonties here :
http://an-open-letter.org/testimonies/#5
03 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipWell, you can believe the so-called Witness Lee when he says that Christ Jesus, the Son is the very same Father and the Holy Spirit if you wish, but I believe he is teaching a false teaching that is not the teaching of Jesus and has already been declare heresy by Church councils before the division of the Church.
[quote] First Corinthians 15:45 states: “The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit” (ASV). Who is the last Adam? Jesus. Who is the life-giving Spirit? The Holy Spirit. Besides the Holy Spirit, there is no other spirit that gives life. This verse clearly tells us that Jesus, who is called in the Bible the last Adam, became the life-giving Spirit. Hence, to sa ...[text shortened]... not teach that there was no eternal Spirit before the last Adam became a life giving Spirit....
03 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonship"The Unholy Trinty of Witness Lee"
RJHinds,
Please Define "The Unholy Trinty of Witness Lee"
Exactly what is "unholy" about anything Witness Lee said concerning the Triune God ?
And while you are at that here are some of the theologians who have stated that they found no problem with Witness Lee's presentation of major Christian themes:
David Aikman Phd.
"...a ...[text shortened]... s mission."
More testimonties here :
http://an-open-letter.org/testimonies/#5
This is Lee's false teaching of a false Trinity that Jesus never taught. This Unholy Trinity says that Jesus Christ, the Son is the very same Father and the Holy Spirit.
Jesus taught that both the Son and the Holy Spirit were subordinate to the Father and were NOT the very same, but distinguished each as NOT the same. Jesus said that He would ask the Father to send the disciples ANOTHER helper, which turned out to be the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is the SAME, why does JESUS call Him ANOTHER?
To me, Lee's Trinity is unholy because it implies Jesus is a deceiver and a liar.
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04 Jul 14
6 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
Well, you can believe the so-called Witness Lee when he says that Christ Jesus, the Son is the very same Father and the Holy Spirit if you wish, but I believe he is teaching a false teaching that is not the teaching of Jesus and has already been declare heresy by Church councils before the division of the Church.
But you cannot point out the falsehood.
In church history it was often the case that a teacher would be falsely accused of two opposite kinds of heresies. When he spoke of the aspect of one God, he would be accused of Modalism. But when the same teacher spoke of distinctions between the three of the Trinity, he would be accused of Tri-Theism.
As the teachers searched formulate an adaquate explanation of God's mysterious being, it was easy for the limitation of human language to give some critics ground to accuse them of one error or another.
For some, one minute they were labelled a Modalist and the next a Tri-Theist.
For example, Gregory of Nyssa (4th century AD ) wrote in On the Holy Trinity -
"They charge us with preaching three Gods and din into the ears of the multitude this slander, which they never rest from maintaining persuasively. Then truth fights on our side, for we show both publicly to all men, and privately to those who converse with us, that we anathematize any man who says that there are three Gods, and hold him to be not even a Christian. Then, as soon as they hear this, they find Sabellius a handy weapon against us, and the plague that he spread is the subject of continual attacks upon us. Once more, we oppose to this assault our wonted armour of truth, and show that we abhor this form of heresy just as much as Judaism."
He is saying that he and some colleagues are accused from one angle when they affirm the three Persons of the Trinity as being Tri-Theists. But when they affirm the One God they are accused of the opposite extreme of Modalism.
There is nothing new going on with gullible Christians like yourself being falsely informed based on some cherry picked statements that Witness Lee taught "heresy" when he, like Gregory of Nyssa, emphasized one aspect of the Bible's revelation about God.
I have proved that he was well balanced and taught both the essential Trinity and the economical Trinity. You're gullible and repeat parrot style false accusations against a well balanced teacher.
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04 Jul 14
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Originally posted by RJHinds
"The Unholy Trinty of Witness Lee"
This is Lee's false teaching of a false Trinity that Jesus never taught. This Unholy Trinity says that Jesus Christ, the Son is the very same Father and the Holy Spirit.
So you are saying that it is "unholy" to teach Christians that Isaiah 9:6 says that the "Son ... given" shall be called "Eternal Father"?
So you say this is "unholy" to repeat what the prophet Isaiah spoke? But the New Testament in Luke 1:70 God spoke through the "holy prophets. "
" As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: " (Luke 1:70)
Witness Lee's affirmation of the holy prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 9:6 is not unholy. Shame on you for your opposition to affirming what the holy prophets spoke.
Jesus taught that both the Son and the Holy Spirit were subordinate to the Father and were NOT the very same, but distinguished each as NOT the same.
Jesus ALSO taught that the coming of the Holy Spirit was His own coming.
"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.
I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you." (John 14:17,28)
Jesus taught that the Father would send "another Comforter" . And in the next breath Jesus taught that "I am coming to you."
So the coming of the Spirit of reality was the coming of Jesus Christ. Witness Lee affirmed this holy truth and you accuse him of teaching an "Unholy Trinity".
Shame on you for your opposition to the New Testament.
Look again what Jesus said -
" ... you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you. I WILL NOT LEAVE YOU AS ORPHANS; I AM COMING TO YOU." (John 14:17b,18 my emphasis)
This is not an "Unholy Trinity" to speak of Christ being the Spirit of reality coming to us disciples, not leaving us as orphans.
I have proved to you that Gregory of Nyssa, one of the framers of orthodox doctrine of the Trinity in the 4th century AD complained of opposition for standing for BOTH aspects of the truth of this mysterious three-one God.
What are you doing which Gregory's critics were not doing? You level the accusation of Witness Lee's "Unholy Trinity" because he affirmed that the Lord is the Spirit, repeating the clear apostolic teaching of Second Corinthians 3:17 which strongly echoes what Jesus said in the "red letters" of John 14:17,18.
We thank God for careful teachers of the word of God like Witness Lee.
Jesus said that He would ask the Father to send the disciples ANOTHER helper, which turned out to be the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is the SAME, why does JESUS call Him ANOTHER?
If you read the passage carefully, you might see that the "Another Comforter" is the First Comforter in Another Form.
Sure He is. That is why Jesus said - "He abides with you and shall be in you." (v.17)
Jesus Himself was abiding WITH the disciples. He was about to enter into a form in which He would abide IN the disciples.
" ... but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you."
Jesus is saying that the "Another Comforter" is Himself who was abiding WITH them for three and a half years but is about to enter INTO them, not leaving them as orphans.
"I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you." (v.18)
So the "He" of verse 17 suddenly becomes the "I" of verse 18. And the "Another Comforter" is the Lord Jesus in another form as "life giving Spirit" .
This affirmation Witness Lee pointed out you slanderously label as "Witness Lee's Unholy Trinity".
To me, Lee's Trinity is unholy because it implies Jesus is a deceiver and a liar.
Please identify the LIE in John 14. What did Jesus teach His disciples there that was a LIE?
Was He lying to say that He and the Father would come and make an abode with His disciples (John 14:23) ?
"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
Was this a LIE RJHinds? Is it a LIE that the Father and the Son will come and make an abode with the lovers of Jesus Christ?
And if you read the chapter carefully you will see that the coming of "Another Comforter" HAS to be the way in which the Divine "We" of the Father and the Son will come and make an abode with Christ's lovers.
So according to you it is "unholy" to affirm what John 14 teaches. Some of us rather believe that Witness Lee was affirming the holy truth of the holy God for pointing out these truths to God's people.
04 Jul 14
4 edits
Originally posted by sonshipWe all agree that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are in nature or essence ONE God. What we disagree on is that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in ONE Person. Orthodox Trinitarians say that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit must be THREE distinct persons for there to be the the intimacy of love between them."The Unholy Trinty of Witness Lee"
This is Lee's false teaching of a false Trinity that Jesus never taught. This Unholy Trinity says that Jesus Christ, the Son is the very same Father and the Holy Spirit.
So you are saying that it is "unholy" to teach Christians that [b]Isaiah 9:6 says that the "Son ... given" shall be call ...[text shortened]... Lee was affirming the holy truth of the holy God for pointing out these truths to God's people.[/b]
Let us look at a little more context to the verse you believe means that Jesus is saying He is the Person of the Holy Spirit.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
(John 14:18-29 KJV)
Obviously, Jesus is talking about His death and His resurrection. He does not plan to leave his disciples comfortless or as orphans because of his death. Jesus does COME to them after His resurrection and then His disciples believed that Jesus was telling the truth.
There is intimacy between the Father and Son spoken of here, which means there must be TWO Persons here, not Just ONE Person as Mr. Lee teaches. The fact that He says the Father is greater than I also indicates that there are TWO Persons, not just ONE Person as Mr. Lee states. How could One Person be greater than the very SAME Person as Mr. Lee states?
Jesus identifies the other Person of the Godhead by saying, "the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
Then Jesus says He is going to the Father, obviously referring to His ascenion to the right hand of the Father on the Heavenly throne. But the fact that the Holy Ghost will be with the disciples to bring the peace of Jesus and His teachings back to their rememberance is like Jesus being there, even though His Person is actually with the Person of the Father in Heaven.
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10 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
(John 14:18-29 KJV)
Obviously, Jesus is talking about His death and His resurrection. He does not plan to leave his disciples comfortless or as orphans because of his death. Jesus does COME to them after His resurrection and then His disciples believed that Jesus was telling the truth.
You are giving so much attention to the physical resurrection that you under appreciate that His coming is also to dwell IN THEM as the Spirit of reality.
" .. the Spirit of reality ... He abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you."
Witness Lee taught BOTH truths without using one to suppress the other. Jesus physically resurrects and Jesus comes to be IN the disciples in His pneumatic form.
This is in agreement with His promise that He and His Father will come TO His lovers and make an abode with them.
There is intimacy between the Father and Son spoken of here, which means there must be TWO Persons here, not Just ONE Person as Mr. Lee teaches.
This is the mystery of the Triune God - there is Father, Son, Holy Spirit with love as you say. Yet there is One God. Witness Lee teaches both sides of the truth because his scope is greater than the narrow scope you use.
"We" [Father and Son] will come to make an abode with the lovers of Jesus (14:23). God can do that because of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit brings the Father and the into the believers.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit with all Their divine love enter to make an abode with the lovers of Jesus according to the New Testament. Christian Brother Lee, whom you only wish to call "Mr. Lee" taught exactly what the New Testament teaches.
His ministry has raised up hundreds of churches around the globe on all five continents. How many Christian churches has your or my ministry raised up? It is silly for me to criticize Witness Lee as a preacher of the gospel when his ministry has raised up many churches and I have not raised up one yet.
Witness Lee was not the leader of any cult. You're dead wrong on that slanderous accusation and you probably know it.
Brother Witness Lee accurately taught that all that the Father has was embodied in the Son and the Son conveyed these riches to the church by means of the Holy Spirit. This is the economical operation of the Trinity.
"He [the Holy Spirit] will glorify Me, for He will receive of Mine and will declare it to you. All that the Father has is Mine; for this reason I have said that He receives ofMine and will declare it to you." (John 16:14,15)
Not one third of the Father's is Christ's. Not one third of the Son's is the Spirit's. Rather "All that the Father has is Mine; for this reason I have said that He [Holy Spirit] receives of Me and will declare it to you."
So I quite agree about the eternal love between the Father and the Son. But the Father and the Son come as the Divine "We" to make an abode with Christians by means of the Third of the Triune God - the Spirit of reality.
The fact that He says the Father is greater than I also indicates that there are TWO Persons,
Though we may borrow the word "Persons" we should not stress it to the point that it leads to a concept of three Gods. That is Tri-Theism which was rejected by the ancient brothers wisely.
Human language is limited. I sometimes will say Persons. But you want to insist that one HAS to say "three Persons". That is simply your bias and not a test of orthodoxy.
You should realize human language attempts to explain the mystery of the Trinity are limited. Benjamin Warfield of Princeton Seminary comments on the difficulty:
" Paul is thinking of the Trinity, to be sure, from the point of view of a worshipper, rather than from that of a systematizer. He designates the Persons of the Trinity therefore rather from his relations to them than from their relations to One another ... When we attempt to press the inquiry behind the broad fact, however, with a view to uascertaining exactly how the New Testament writers conceived the three Persons to be related, the one to the other, we meet with great difficulties."
[Benamin B. Warfield, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, an article on "Trinity," Vol. V. pp. 3019-3020 ]
RJHinds, if you wish to use the phrase "three Persons" that is Okay with me. If you insist that the usage of the phrase "Three Persons" has to be the test of orthodoxy, you are pressing your own opinion. Witness Lee and other Bible students would not insist that Christians MUST use the phrase "Three Persons"
If you notice, sometimes I simply say "three _______". I leave it blank. I often speak of the Three. That is because human language fails me. Our attempts to explain this mystery are not to be taken as higher truths than the plain utterances of the Bible.
Could you please show me the phrase "Three Persons" in the Holy Bible ?
I don't think you can. So why insist that "Persons" is the ONLY orthodox expression of the nature of God ?
I can show you where the Lord says "We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23) . So how about we just take it at face value that the Lord Jesus taught that He and His Father composed a "We" .
We may borrow the phrases like "hypostasis" or "three Persons". But if we press "three Persons" when the Bible did not use the phrase "three Persons" we may give the impression that we believe in three Gods. Three Gods the brothers called the heresy of Tri-Theism.
Once again, because you may soon forget. We may borrow the phrase "three Persons" to help us somewhat in this mystery. We should not make the usage of the phrase "three Persons" as a test for orthodoxy.
We in the local churches do not submit ourselves to your arbitrary test of orthodoxy that we MUST speak of Father, Son, Holy Spirit as "three Persons" at all times.
While on occasion you may read about the second Person of the Trinity or the Third Person of theTrinity (in our literature), we do not INSIST that that kind of expression ALWAYS has to be used or else we do not teach an "orthodox Christian view."
Got that ?
Now that is all I can write on this today. Enjoy the mysterious three-one God. And get off Witness Lee's back. Hundreds of local churches have been raised up in many different languages accross the globe because of messages he spoke and books he wrote.
04 Jul 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipIf you can make all of Lee's statments fit within the three Christian Creeds then it is True Christianity.(John 14:18-29 KJV)
Obviously, Jesus is talking about His death and His resurrection. He does not plan to leave his disciples comfortless or as orphans because of his death. Jesus does COME to them after His resurrection and then His disciples believed that Jesus was telling the truth.
You are giving so much attention to the physica ...[text shortened]... p in many different languages accross the globe because of messages he spoke and books he wrote.
Athanasian Creed
Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.
Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.
Now this is the catholic faith:
That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.
What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.
The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.
And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.
Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.
Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.
Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.
Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.
The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.
Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.
So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.
Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.
But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.
Now this is the true faith:
That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.
He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.
Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.
He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.
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05 Jul 14
3 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
If you can make all of Lee's statments fit within the three Christian Creeds then it is True Christianity.
The first thing should be to compare a Christian teacher's teachings to the Bible.
"How does it stand up with the word God?" should take precedence over "How does it stand up with traditions?"
There were plenty of scholars and religious authorities in the days of Martin Luther when he was teaching about Justification by Faith. They sized him up with long standing traditions and opposed him.
Allegedly these words are attributed to Luther by many historians:
Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Holy Scriptures or by evident reason-for I can believe neither pope nor councils alone, as it is clear that they have erred repeatedly and contradicted themselves-I consider myself convicted by the testimony of Holy Scripture, which is my basis; my conscience is captive to the Word of God. Thus I cannot and will not recant, because acting against one's conscience is neither safe nor sound. God help me. Amen.
Before you measure teachers against creeds you should compare their words to the Scripture.
You may be confused at this point and wish to examine Witness Lee through the lenses of the Athanasian Creed. I have been following messages by Witness Lee for over 36 years. I know what he spoke and taught. I don't need to check it with the Athanasian Creed to OK his ministry.
Maybe you thought criticzing as a false teacher Witness Lee would be a slam-dunk and you discovered maybe it was not as easy as some critics lead you to think it was. Maybe you feel the need to think things through a little more.
I got to know that Witness Lee was a faithful minister of the Bible many years ago. I saw the fruit of this kind of teaching of God's economy and it spoke for God's blessing upon it.
But for point of interest, this same Athanasius (A.D. 296-373) who attended the council of Nicea as a young deacon, and took the lead to challenge the heretical Arian doctrine, gave strong testimony to Scripture.
On Christ being the Spirit in Second Corithians 3:16-17 he wrote in Against the Arians, I, 4:11:
Study too the context and "Turn to the Lord"; now "the Lord is the Spirit"; and you will see that it is the Son who is signified.
So if Witness Lee is to be condemned for saying according to Scripture "Now the Lord is the [that] Spirit" meaning the Son of God is the Holy Spirit, then Athanasius is to be condemned as well.
God is mysterious. And creeds may help us but cannot substitute the plain words of the word of God. Witness Lee like Athanasius before him realized that we should not nullify the Bible for the sake of formulated creeds.
05 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipLee's words compare favorably with Scripture in some case and contrary to scripture in other cases. It is those contraty statements that must be challenged.If you can make all of Lee's statments fit within the three Christian Creeds then it is True Christianity.
The first thing should be to compare a Christian teacher's teachings to the [b] Bible.
"How does it stand up with the word God?" should take precedence over "How does it stand up with traditions?"
There were plenty of ...[text shortened]... sius before him realized that we should not nullify the Bible for the sake of formulated creeds.[/b]
Thirty-six years compared to over 1600 years for the three main Creeds of Christianity is no contest. Christ may be the source of the Spirit for many teachings, but that does mean Christ is the same Person as the Holy Spirit.
Doesn't it even bother you that one of his former students would say that Lee revel in his ability to teach contrary ideas and get away with it, or that he would say that Tritheism and Modalism are both Biblical?
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06 Jul 14
4 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
Lee's words compare favorably with Scripture in some case and contrary to scripture in other cases. It is those contraty statements that must be challenged.
The co-workers have furnished you with a search engine so that you can search through Witness Lee's messages and find phrases of interest and how they were used.
http://www.ministrybooks.org/
You may challenge any statements that you think should be. But be prepared that some of your challenges will prove to be based on a shortage of your own understanding of the Scriptures. Or they are based on biased and selective quote hunting by over zealous traditionalists who think creeds are more important than the pure utterances of the Bible.
Thirty-six years compared to over 1600 years for the three main Creeds of Christianity is no contest. Christ may be the source of the Spirit for many teachings, but that does mean Christ is the same Person as the Holy Spirit.
The Bible says "Now the Lord is the Spirit" .
So if the Lord the Spirit or is the Lord NOT the Spirit ?
How about we just say "AMEN!" to the pure word of revelation even though it may cause some creeds some difficulties?
If you for the sake of some creed argue that the Lord is NOT the Spirit then you make null the word of God for the sake of your tradition. Jesus warned the religionists against that.
Matthew 15:6 - " ... you have deprived the word of God of its authority because of your tradition."
We would rather agree to stand upon the statement that "The Lord is the Spirit" as the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostle Paul to WRITE.
We will ALSO embrace with as much enthusiasm the statements that teach a distinction between Jesus and the Holy Spirit too, IE.
"But I tell you the truth, It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you." (John 16:7)
We never found Witness Lee fighting against this passage trying to put it down simply because another passage says "the Lord is the Spirit" . Witness Lee taught Christians how to say AMEN to whatever the Bible says with faith.
Creeds are secondary. I did not say they were not helpful or important. I did say that they were "secondary".
So some teachers call a faithful teacher a cult leader because he affirms with faith that the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Triune God is the Second Person in another form.
Jesus said it was EXPEDIENT that He go away and this Spirit come as the Comforter. It is no wonder because this Spirit is the Lord Jesus Himself in His "pneumatic" form. "Now the Lord is the Spirit" .
He said the Comforter was WITH the disciples but would be IN the disciples after His resurrection:
" ... the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.
I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you." (John 14:17,18)
It is expedient that Jesus Christ Himself come to us in His form as the "Another Comforter" the Holy Spirit for the last Adam became a life giving Spirit. And "the Lord is the Spirit. And where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom."
It seems that some of these critics of yours are fighting against the expediency of Christ Himself living within His saved people. How strange.
Doesn't it even bother you that one of his former students would say that Lee revel in his ability to teach contrary ideas and get away with it, or that he would say that Tritheism and Modalism are both Biblical?
It doesn't bother me that the Apostle Paul said the all Asia had departed from receiving his teachings. See 2 Tmothy 1:15 -
English Standard Version
You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes.
New American Standard Bible
You are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes.
King James Bible
This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
This you know: All those in Asia have turned away from me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes.
The "former student" card you are playing there is not that impressive. The Apostle Paul names some former associates who decided they would reject Paul's ministry. And a whole province turned away from him.
It didn't stop God from using Paul. Did it?
It didn't stop Paul from writing some 13 books of the New Testament.