Romans 9:5

Originally posted by RJHinds
In a previous post I pointed out that Archibald Thomas Robertson, a famous New Testament Greek scholar who wrote "Word Pictures in the New Testament", wrote the following concerning Romans 9:5 ... "Who is over all, God blessed for ever (ho on epi panton theos eulogetos):

A clear statement of the deity of Christ following the remark about his humanity.
...[text shortened]... e about and was adopted by the Christian Church as the only way to resolve the apparent paradox.

I am not going to debate this any more. Your mind is made up...I just put it out there for anyone interested.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I am not going to debate this any more. Your mind is made up...I just put it out there for anyone interested.

I am only trying to defend what the majority of Christians believe on this subject. We are all free to have different opinions. So I hope I did not appear hostile toward you in my presentation.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I am only trying to defend what the majority of Christians believe on this subject. We are all free to have different opinions. So I hope I did not appear hostile toward you in my presentation.

I didn't say you were. I agree with most of what Christianity teaches, but it is not always true.
Majority does not prove anything. I respect the opinion of Trinitarians, I just disagree. I have seen miraculous things, prayers answered, people healed, in both camps.
God looks at the heart....

Originally posted by CalJust
I am fully aware of what the Watchtower teaches - and there are many aspects of their teaching that you would do well to take to heart.

Same with the Mormons - don't discount everybody else just because you don't agree with them.

You're being extreme. I understand what you're saying, but that's not what's being debated about.

You need to stay with the topic, i.e. Romans 9:5.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Being devoid of understanding of their own beliefs, they become emotive when challenged, its a waste of time trying to reason with them, because their faith is not based on reason. It really is that simple.

My faith is based on the Word of God.

You debate like an atheist.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

Thanks for your contribution as it does help consideration of the passage. I will read it a couple of times.

2. In The Doctrine of the Trinity, R. S. Franks, a Trinitarian and the Principal Emeritus of Western College in Bristol, writes,

It should be added that Rom. 9:5 cannot be adduced to prove that Paul ever thought of Christ as God. The state of the case is found in the R.V. margin…He [Paul] never leaves the ground of Jewish monotheism. It has been pointed out that Rom. 9:5 cannot be brought in to question this statement. On the contrary, God is spoken of by the Apostle as not only the Father, but also the God of our Lord Jesus Christ” [1]

I lean rather to agreeing with the footnote of the Recovery Version on Rom 5:9.

"Who are the fathers, and out of whom, as regards what is according to flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen" (RcV)

" It is clearly stated here that Christ is God, proving that although Christ was a man (5:15) with flesh who came out of the tribe of Judah, a tribe of Israel, He is also God, who is over all and blessed forever. He is both man and God. He is God the Son, and He is the Triune God."

It is the Jewish Bible that also said that the child born would be called Mighty God. The same passage of the Jewish Bible said the Son given would be called the Father of eternity - (Isaiah 9:6)

Therefore I think it is hard to make a case that the Son being God is somehow not in accord with the Jewish monotheism of the prophet Isaiah.

Paul would be consistent with biblical Jewish monotheism by affirming the Son was God over all, blessed forever.

3. There is good evidence from both the immediate remote contexts that the last phrase of this verse is a eulogy or doxology to God the Father. “God over all” and “God blessed forever” are both used of God the Father elsewhere in the New Testament (Rom. 1:25; 2 Cor. 11:31; Eph. 1:3; 4:6; 1 Tim. 6:15). In contrast, neither phrase is ever used of Christ. It would be highly unusual to take eulogies that were commonly used of God and, abruptly and without comment or explanation, apply them to Christ.

It is an interesting point that God the Creator is "blessed forever" in Rom. 1:25. But the same writer says in Colossians that all things were created in Christ -

" Because in Him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, ... all things have been created through Him and unto Him." (See Col. 1:16)

And the writer of Hebrews writes - "the Son, ... through whom also He made the universe" (Heb 1:2)

It is difficult to imply that Paul considered the Son less than the Creator or the creating God Himself. All the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him, Paul writes (Col. 2:9). And -

"For in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell." (Col. 1:19)

The Jewish Scriptures of the Tanakh (Old Testament) would also perfectly confirm that the Son is addressed as God, as the book of Hebrews reminds us:

But of the Son, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom." (Hebrews 1:8 (see Psalm 45:6-7))

This Messianic Psalm has a coming King who reigns righteously who is a man and God.

Psalm 45:6-7 - "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions."

The righteous Messianic King is God.
The righteous Messianic King also has His God (the Father).
The righteous Messianic King also has "companions" since He became a man.

The truth of monotheism and the incarnation of God as a man is strongly indicated in this text of the Jewish Bible. By writing that "... the Christ, who is God over all" I do not see the Apostle Paul saying anything that the Hebrew Bible did not say.

Perhaps further comment latter.

[ I am sonship writing from user gswilm's session. ]

Originally posted by josephw
My faith is based on the Word of God.

You debate like an atheist.

we have already established that you personally don't know what Gods word actually says and your faith is therefor nothing more than a projection of ignorance.

Originally posted by josephw
Ya, sure, you can read Greek...

You've only got his word for that and as robbie has been prone to [shall we call it] "exaggeration" before, I really wouldn't back down or show him deference based on that spurious claim. Besides, any instruction he has had in Greek will be subject to interpretation from the original Hebrew or other text, exposed to error in schematic context and no doubt sanitised and highly over-emphasised by the Jehovah witness governing body.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Being devoid of understanding of their own beliefs, they become emotive when challenged, its a waste of time trying to reason with them, because their faith is not based on reason. It really is that simple.

Originally posted by josephw
You debate like an atheist.

In the midst of such a heated debate, it is refreshing to see that you can offer such high praise to your opponent.

Originally posted by PatNovak
In the midst of such a heated debate, it is refreshing to see that you can offer such high praise to your opponent.

But I am not in a debate, i refuse to debate with people who willfully refuse to exert a little effort and learn about what it is they are professing.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
But I am not in a debate, i refuse to debate with people who willfully refuse to exert a little effort and learn about what it is they are professing.

You refuse to debate people like me that refuse to submit to your regurgitated Watchtower propaganda.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
But I am not in a debate, i refuse to debate with people who willfully refuse to exert a little effort and learn about what it is they are professing.

Sorry, I should have written my post so it was more obvious who I was replying to. My comment was directed at josephw, not you robbie.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You refuse to debate people like me that refuse to submit to your regurgitated Watchtower propaganda.

Maybe the reason he doesn't want to debate you is because he just doesn't have time to watch hours of random, off-topic videos that you have never seen, but will expect him to watch.

Originally posted by PatNovak
Sorry, I should have written my post so it was more obvious who I was replying to. My comment was directed at josephw, not you robbie.

yes i actually thought this was the case but by then my comment was indelibly etched on the servers - 😀

Originally posted by RJHinds
You refuse to debate people like me that refuse to submit to your regurgitated Watchtower propaganda.

I have not asked you to submit to anything, its illogical and irrational to debate with people who don't know what they are talking about and in fact I never mention the watchtower bible and tract society, usually its people like you that bring it up because you are devoid of anything else.