16 Jul 14
Originally posted by RJHindsApparently you do Mr Hinds. You encourage and enable him. When are you going to realise that Jaywill/sonship is part of a cult .. just another sect that believe they are Gods chosen and all other Christian sects are doomed. Apparently this fool is worshiping Lee and Nee has them so high up on a pedestal that he cannot see when nobody [but you apparently ] is interested in what he is saying.
So what? Who cares?
16 Jul 14
Originally posted by Rajk999I care what he says. But I was talking about all those books he listed.
Apparently you do Mr Hinds. You encourage and enable him. When are you going to realise that Jaywill/sonship is part of a cult .. just another sect that believe they are Gods chosen and all other Christian sects are doomed. Apparently this fool is worshiping Lee and Nee has them so high up on a pedestal that he cannot see when nobody [but you apparently ] is interested in what he is saying.
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16 Jul 14
Originally posted by RJHinds"False teaching" which you have been totally unable to point out even up to now.
You figure it out if you wish to know. I don't care and you don't either. All you care about is changing the subject to devert the attention away from the false teachings of Witness Lee.
Originally posted by sonshipWitness Lee taught that the Person of the Son in the Godhead is the same Person as the Father.
"False teaching" which you have been totally unable to point out even up to now.
Witness Lee taught that the Person of the Son in the Godhead is the same Person as the Holy Spirit.
Witness Lee taught that the three Persons in God are actually only one Person.
THESE ARE FALSE AND HERETICAL TEACHINGS.
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16 Jul 14
Originally posted by Rajk999I do not worship Watchman Nee or Witness Lee.
Apparently you do Mr Hinds. You encourage and enable him. When are you going to realise that Jaywill/sonship is part of a cult .. just another sect that believe they are Gods chosen and all other Christian sects are doomed. Apparently this fool is worshiping Lee and Nee has them so high up on a pedestal that he cannot see when nobody [but you apparently ] is interested in what he is saying.
Some people hate them and think that all who speak of having benefit from them must worship them. But they must hate someone who has ministered some things which exposed them.
Just like you probably hate me because I wrote some things here which simply exposed you.
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16 Jul 14
Originally posted by RJHinds
Witness Lee taught that the Person of the Son in the Godhead is the same Person as the Father.
" Faith come out of hearing and hearing through the word of Christ " says Romans 10:17 RcV)
"Philip said to Him, Lord show us the Father and it is sufficient for us.
Jesus said to him, Have I been so long a time with you and you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how is it that you say Show us the Father ? " (John 14:9)
Indeed, faith comes by hearing and hearing through the word of Christ.
Witness Lee taught that the Person of the Son in the Godhead is the same Person as the Holy Spirit.
" Faith come out of hearing and hearing through the word of God " says Romans 10:17)
"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom." (2 Cor. 3:17)
"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, ..." (Eph. 3:17)
Indeed "Faith comes through hearing and hearing through the word of Christ." (Rom. 10:17)
Witness Lee taught that the three Persons in God are actually only one Person.
Lee taught that the use of the word "Persons" or "Person" has its limitations and can lead to problems. Of course other Bible teachers, quite unaware of Witness Lee's position, said much of the same thing independently.
Thomas F. Torrance, Professor of Christian Dogmatics at the University of Edinburgh, noted:
However, in the biblical tradition itself, in the Old and New Testaments, there is no explicit concept of ‘person’…5
Augustus H. Strong, whom Geisler and Rhodes referred to as "the noted Baptist theologian," said:
The term ‘person’ only approximately represents the truth. Although this word, more nearly than any other single word, expressed the conception which the Scriptures give us of the relation between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, it is not itself used in this connection in Scriptures, and we employ it in a qualified sense, not in the ordinary sense in which we apply the word ‘person’ to Peter, Paul, and John.6
J. Scott Horrell, Professor of Theological Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary, notes:
If the term nature is difficult when we speak of God, the term person is all the more complex. Theologians such as Tertullian, the Cappadocians, Augustine, and Aquinas differ in their concept of person, even if modern and postmodern conceptions vary considerably more.7
According to a recent book by Thomas Weinandy, a Catholic theologian and lecturer in History and Doctrine at the University of Oxford:
A good deal of discussion is taking place among contemporary theologians on the suitability of designating as ‘persons’ the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.8
The problem with the term Person is not a new one. In a sermon in 1775, John Wesley commented:
I dare not insist upon anyone’s using the word "Trinity" or "Person." I use them myself without any scruple, because I know of none better: But if any man has scruple concerning them, who shall constrain him to use them? I cannot.9
Be a good boy for us now RJHinds. Open mouth and change feet!
16 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipJohn Wesley got so many things right.
The problem with the term Person is not a new one. In a sermon in 1775, John Wesley commented:
I dare not insist upon anyone’s using the word "Trinity" or "Person." I use them myself without any scruple, because I know of none better: But if any man has scruple concerning them, who shall constrain him to use them? I cannot.
Thank you for including this quote from him.
Originally posted by sonshipWitness Lee has no problem using Person. He just teaches the lie that the three Persons in God are actually only one Person. That is because Lee teaches the lie that the Son is the Father and the Son is also the Holy Spirit in contradiction to the truth that Jesus taught.Witness Lee taught that the Person of the Son in the Godhead is the same Person as the Father.
[b]" Faith come out of hearing and hearing through the word of Christ " says Romans 10:17 RcV)
"Philip said to Him, Lord show us the Father and it is sufficient for us.
Jesus said to him, Have I been so long a time with y ...[text shortened]... ? I cannot.9
[/quote]
Be a good boy for us now RJHinds. Open mouth and change feet![/b]
Jesus taught that He was the Son of God and that His Father was GREATER and that Holy Spirit was ANOTHER, not the very same as witness Lee taught. Jesus (YaHshua) said He came in His Father's NAME. Jesus also said, "The Father will send the Holy Spirit in my NAME." That NAME is YaH (I AM). Jesus (YaHshua) means YaH saves.
HalleluYah !!! This means "Paise Yah" or "Praise the LORD". YaH is the one being praised. I also have my Father's name of Hinds, but that does not make me the same person as my father.
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Originally posted by RJHindsYou have a good memory. Its just short.
Witness Lee has no problem using Person. He just teaches the lie that the three Persons in God are actually only one Person. That is because Lee teaches the lie that the Son is the Father and the Son is also the Holy Spirit in contradiction to the truth that Jesus taught.
Jesus taught that He was the Son of God and that His Father was GREATER and that H ...[text shortened]... I also have my Father's name of Hinds, but that does not make me the same person as my father.
Augustus H. Strong, whom Geisler and Rhodes referred to as "the noted Baptist theologian," said:
The term ‘person’ only approximately represents the truth. Although this word, more nearly than any other single word, expressed the conception which the Scriptures give us of the relation between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, it is not itself used in this connection in Scriptures, and we employ it in a qualified sense, not in the ordinary sense in which we apply the word ‘person’ to Peter, Paul, and John.6
17 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonship[/b]Words are given different meanings depending on how we use them. Person usually means a human being and those characteristics associated with being human when we speak of Peter, Paul, and John. Obviously we are not using exactly the same definition when referring to God or to the angels. But we are still referring to characteristics of the mind, like the ability to reason, to have His own will, to love, to grieve, etc.
You have a good memory. Its just short.
[b] Augustus H. Strong,whom Geisler and Rhodes referred to as "the noted Baptist theologian," said:
The term ‘person’ only approximately represents the truth. Although this word, more nearly than any other single word, expressed the conception which the Scriptures give us of the relation between t ...[text shortened]... t in the ordinary sense in which we apply the word ‘person’ to Peter, Paul, and John.6
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For Christian brothers and sisters around the world struggling to overcome so many things, it has been a great blessing to be taught that Jesus Christ is in them.
It is not only biblical but it is powerful weapon against the enemy of God. For the devil would like nothing more than for us to strive in our own power against his wiles. When we confess outright that we need not strive against sin because Jesus Christ lives in us, he is defeated.
Jesus said that WITHOUT Him we could do nothing.
"I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5)
Apart from abiding in Christ, drawing out His riches from Him, applying His power and wisdom, and taping into His life, we can do nothing. Or all that we may do will amount to nothing.
So here we have a Christian , Witness Lee, stressing that God is in Christ and that Christ is in the believers in Christ. Here you have a overcoming brother trying to bring others into that overcoming - saying the Spirit in you is Jesus Christ. And some religionists are mad because it bothers there systematic formulas which seem to insist that "Person" and "Persons" have to be used in a way in which they approve.
In the 1970s in the Life Study of Genesis Witness Lee said:
Regarding the matter of the Trinity, according to the Bible we believe in the one God, the Triune God—the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. We believe exactly in what the Bible says. But some say, in their definition of the Trinity according to their concept, that the "Father, Son, and Spirit are three distinct persons in the nature of one God." Then what about this one God? Is He not a person? As the Father is a person, the Son is a person, and the Spirit is a person, so God Himself must also be a person. If so, then there must be four persons in the one God. To talk about the Trinity with this kind of terminology causes trouble and entangles those who use it. We should not get involved in it. Griffith Thomas, famous for his exposition on Romans, says in The Principles of Theology, "The term 'Person'... must not be pressed too far or it will lead to Tritheism..The truth and experience of the Trinity is not dependent on theological terminology." The Trinity is an unfathomable mystery. No one can explain it adequately. We can only say that according to the Bible there is one, unique God; that He is triune, the Father, Son, and Spirit; and that Isaiah 9:6 says that the Son is the Father, and 2 Corinthians 3:17 tells us that the Lord is the Spirit. We simply believe all that the Bible says.
17 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipThe Doctrine of the Trinity has already been worked out and agreed upon over 1600 years ago by the universal Christian Church. Any teaching contrary to the accepted one is a heresy.
For Christian brothers and sisters around the world struggling to overcome so many things, it has been a great blessing to be taught that Jesus Christ is in them.
It is not only biblical but it is powerful weapon against the enemy of God. For the devil would like nothing more than for us to strive in our own power against his wiles. When we confess outri ...[text shortened]... s 3:17 tells us that the Lord is the Spirit. We simply believe all that the Bible says. [/quote]
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Originally posted by RJHindsThe experience of the Trinity is still much needed. A passage like this is focused on the much needed experience of the Trinity
The Doctrine of the Trinity has already been worked out and agreed upon over 1600 years ago by the universal Christian Church. Any teaching contrary to the accepted one is a heresy.
"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of him.
But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness.
And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in, He who raised Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
So then, brothers, we are debtors not to the flesh to live according to the flesh;
For if you live according to the flesh, you must die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live." (Romans 8:9-11)
You see you may boast that the "doctrine of the Trinity" was worked out 1600 years ago. But the Lord has not returned yet because too much of the church have only the "doctrine of the Trinity" and lack utilizing Christ (the Spirit of Christ) to put to death the practices of the body.
Suppose you have a "doctrine of the Trinity" worked out 1600 years ago yet you still live a fleshly life ?
The passage is not about doctrine as it is about enjoyment of the indwelling Spirit of Christ Who is Christ - "But if Christ is in you ...".
So we appreciate teachers who labor to realize that Christ is within us and do not excuse the poverty of fleshy living on "Christ is in you" being a "figure of speech".
In these last days may God gain an army of people living in so many cities over this globe who have faith that Christ is in them. Christ is in them because the Spirit of God, is the Spirit of Christ and Christ Himself.
You may talk about the doctrine worked out 1600 ago but we today need to see that we are not "debtors to the flesh" walking around with a "doctrine" 1600s ago made.
We need TODAY the reality that because the very Christ is in us we are not debtors to the flesh. We need to learn to utilize the indwelling Spirit of Christ to put to death the practices of the body as Paul outlined in chapter 7.
Men like Witness Lee have led the way in raising up practical local churches of people in the experience of the indwelling Triune God.
You're fighting against this saying that Christ living in the Christians is only a figure of speech.
18 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipYou don't seem to get that Paul is just using idiomatic expressions as figures of speech and does not mean it literally.
The experience of the Trinity is still much needed. A passage like this is focused on the much needed experience of the Trinity
[b]"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of him.
But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because o ...[text shortened]... re fighting against this saying that Christ living in the Christians is only a figure of speech.
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Originally posted by RJHinds
You don't seem to get that Paul is just using idiomatic expressions as figures of speech and does not mean it literally.
You don't seem to get that Paul is just using idiomatic expressions as figures of speech and does not mean it literally.
There are some things that the Apostle Paul was emphatic that we understand. For example, when some apparently posed the question as to why Christians should not just be able to continue to live in sin, that grace could abound, the apostle took it quite seriously indeed.
"What then shall we say? Should we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Absolutely not! We who have died to sin, how shall we still live in it?
Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death ?
We have been buried therefore with Him through baptism into His death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we might walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:1-5)
It does not sound like Paul is just tossing around some idiomatic expressions. They may be expressions but the truth embodied within them he is emphatic that we see. "Or are you ignorant?"
It does not sound like he is just interested in populating our theological vocabulary with neat idiomatic expressions. He is laboring to bring the saints into what he himself is experiencing. That is walking in newness of life by the indwelling power of the resurrection life of Jesus Christ.
"Do not be ignorant. Neither dismiss these truths of the Gospel as inconsequential nifty expressions. We have been baptized into Christ's death that we may walk in newness of life. It is inconceivable that you would consider God's grace as license to continue to live in sin."
We in the local churches will continue to fight for the truth to be appropriated by faith, that Christ lives in us. If you wish you go ahead and argue that this is just an idiomatic expression.
If you walk in newness of life, then fine, the result is the same. But why not embrace the word of God the way the word of God speaks and let it empower us to "walk in newness of life" ?