From: http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=6227&page=2
Of course God exists, in the same way that Allah, Yaweh, Shiva, Neptune, ghosts, fairies, the number 12, and RHP exist. Each of these things is a concept, a representation of the state of a human mind. The debate "Is there a god?" is really just the debate "Does, or does not, the concept of god affect other concepts in an absolute way?"
That I suppose is rather unclear. I think the God Existence question is really about cause. Since we're all talking about some god, we're acknowledging god's existence as a concept. Furthermore, everything that has a physical existence (objects and events) as well as everything that doesn't but is still "imaginable" has an existence as an idea or piece of information.
'A' is the fact representing a physical event. If A implies at least one of a set of facts representing events taken along with A, then we can say that one of these statements represents an event that is the cause of A. The "Is there a God?" question seems to be equivalent to "Is the conept of God representative of the cause of some or all physical events?" We really have no empirical data about the world to indicate that this question should be answered in the affirmative, but we do have many data to indicate that other concepts can be so associated with physical events, and not clearly asscoiated with the god-concept. This indicates that if the god-concept is to be a cause at all it likely has to be a cause of a very wide array of events, which is even more implausible given what was just said. So because of a lack of evidence for god, and many theoretically and phenomologically acceptable explanations that do not make use of the god-concept, I am an atheist until evidence is introduced to make that position untenable.
EDIT I suppose others in this forum have made the same kind of conlusion, so you needn't read all that.
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Originally posted by ivanhoe
"I am an atheist until evidence is introduced to make that position untenable.
Hi Royalchicken,
What evidence (facts ?) are you willing to accept ?
IvanH."
Well, some sort of clear empirical justification as well as a repudiation and re-explanation of evidence to the contrary. It would have to be stronger than any evidence brought forth by empirical science, because I don't 'believe' the statements of natural science; rather I accept them as at best very likely, which is the intention of the scientific method. To make me 'believe' in God there would have to be some sort of logical justification within an axiomatic base derived from perfect observation.
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"Originally posted by bbarr
it is not rational to believe in God."
Certainly I agree with this, but I doubt many religious people who have thought about it disagree with this point. In my experience, their reply is not contradictory to this, rather, they say "God is outside of reason, and therefore the reasonabless of belief in him/her/it is no test of whether god exists." However:
When one talks about anything, one is really invoking and performing operations on the concept related to that thing. Ideas and concepts are best dealt with on the basis of reason. Asserting that "god is outside reason" is saying that a concept should not be considered in a rational way. They propose "faith" as a way to deal with a concept instead of reason, but give no indication why concepts amenable to rational consideration cannot be dealt with on this basis.
If God cannot be dealt with in a reasonable way, then no "acts of god" may be observed, experimented upon, or thought about except in an illogical or completely indecisive way. Thus physical phenomena, which by definition have some empirical record, are not results of a god. Furthermore, ideas that can be logically manipulated are not results of a god. So the religious person is left with two choices:
1. Insist that god is outside of reason, and accept the consequence that no part of human existence can be attributed to god besides totally valueless and irrational thoughts.
2. Retract that claim, say that god can be contained by rationality, and be forced to accept the already decided conclusion that belief in god is irrational.
That is some supreme being . It is strange that religious people, who apparently should be total nihilists, are sometimes so vehement. Anyone care to comment?
Originally posted by royalchickenI'll give you 10-1 that dj replies with a question and not with a reasonable and detailed counter post, addressing your points succinctly.
From: http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=6227&page=2
Of course God exists, in the same way that Allah, Yaweh, Shiva, Neptune, ghosts, fairies, the number 12, and RHP exist. Each of these things is a concept, a representation of the state of a human mind. The debate "Is there a god?" is really just the debate "Does, or does not, t ...[text shortened]... nihilists, are sometimes so vehement. Anyone care to comment?
Originally posted by StarrmanI can't drink and gamble on the same night and expect dj to have anything to do with me, so I'm not going to accept your odds, infidel.
I'll give you 10-1 that dj replies with a question and not with a reasonable and detailed counter post, addressing your points succinctly.
Originally posted by royalchickenCatholic girls
True love waits but wanton debauchery waits behind the church dumpster.
With a tiny little mustache
Catholic girls
Do you know how they go?
Catholic girls
In the rectory basement
Father riley’s a fairy
But it don’t bother mary
Catholic girls
At the CYO
Catholic girls
Do you know how they go?
Catholic girls
There can be no replacement
How do they go, after the show?
All the way
That’s the way they go
Every day
And none of their mamas ever seem to know
Hip-hip-hooray
For all the class they show
There’s nothing like a catholic girl
At the CYO
When they learn to blow...
Originally posted by dj2beckerOriginally posted by dj2becker
I mean more in the line of personal habits and so on?
I'm just interseted why you think believing in the Bible would make you go to church. Don't you think there is more to 'Christianity' than going to church?
I mean more in the line of personal habits and so on?
Oh, I see. You mean like my drinking, gambling and whoring around? Yeah, I suppose I'd have to give up performing coat-wire third term abortions in back alleys, and stop filming myself anally brutalizing young Thai prostitutes and selling the videos over the internet for horny, confused young South African boys to furiously jerk off. Is that about the size of it? Then comes the part where you get to say, "See? You're scared of Christianity because it means you would have to give up your immoral lifestyle!", as if this would be some great debate victory for the forces of Jesusbots everywhere. Praise Him!
I'm sorry to disappoint you, deej. I shan't be playing your Christian Youth Group Kirk Cameron-style Parlour Games. They're as transparent as your anguish over your diabolic pre-Jesus lifestyle when you were all of 9.
I'm beyond believing in the feel-good fairy tales you wish to peddle. Some, like FreakyX and Hammy (even some of the fair-minded individuals on my side of the floor), might call this a close-minded and ridiculously arrogant attitude. FreakyX, I believe, even dedicated an entire thread to me on this very subject. That's fine, you stone-casters are free to label me in any way that makes you feel secure in your holy righteousness. I can take it, I have big shoulders.
I'm just interseted why you think believing in the Bible would make you go to church. Don't you think there is more to 'Christianity' than going to church?
I'm sure there is. I'll (maybe) surprise you, deej: Christianity, like a well-worn teddy bear, is not necessarily a bad thing. If it helps someone to overcome despair in times of personal tragedy, if it convinces someone to selflessly devote their lives to helping others, if it prevents someone from committing a heinous act, then its' job is complete. I'm not about to take the position that there is no good that comes out of religion. My position is, and has been, that it is entirely a construction of man.
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Originally posted by royalchickenI don't have much time lately. I'll try make time to respond.
From: http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=6227&page=2
Of course God exists, in the same way that Allah, Yaweh, Shiva, Neptune, ghosts, fairies, the number 12, and RHP exist. Each of these things is a concept, a representation of the state of a human mind. The debate "Is there a god?" is really just the debate "Does, or does not, t ...[text shortened]... nihilists, are sometimes so vehement. Anyone care to comment?
Originally posted by dj2beckerOf course, writings and drawings of the faithfull.
[b]we have the writings and drawings of His disciples.
Would you mind sharing the writings and drawings of his disciples?
But really, you have to have a personal relationship with Him
Do you really have a personal relationship with him?
If you do I suppose there must be something that he has done for you personally, no ...[text shortened]... ur pasta factory creates pasta quite easily. We don't need a flying spaggetti monster for that.[/b]
http://www.venganza.org/
I DO have a special relationship with the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER. In fact, I ate the communion Fettachini last night for dinner, thus making myself closer to His divine image.
I feel that my belief in the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER has made me a better person. For example, last week I came across a beggar in the street, and I gave him a couple of dollars to get some food. Had it been the previous week, before the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER had came into my life I doubtless would have just spat on him. Only none of that happened, except that doesn't matter, because.
I point out that we have direct evidence of both pasta and flight to prove that both these things are possible. How much evidence do you have of crucified people coming back to life? Or of planets being created in 6 days? Let me tell you. None. My belief in the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER is not founded in the existance of pasta, its based on the personal relationship with my pasta and meat based messiah (don't forget some sauce though, too). I simply point out that there is a greater likelihood of my story being correct that yours, because the required pre-requisites for my beliefs to be true actually exist.
[edit; oh, and it's one 'g' and an 'h' in spaghetti. I'd appreciate if you'd get the name of the creator of midgets everywhere correct.]
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Originally posted by scottishinnzOK. OK. You win.
Of course, writings and drawings of the faithfull.
http://www.venganza.org/
I DO have a special relationship with the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER. In fact, I ate the communion Fettachini last night for dinner, thus making myself closer to His divine image.
I feel that my belief in the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER has made me a better person. For exam ...[text shortened]... i. I'd appreciate if you'd get the name of the creator of midgets everywhere correct.]
I suppose you and your five friends can worship the the Spaghetti man. No problem. It's your choice.
Just one question: Are you willing to die for your Spaghetti man?
I suggest you read Foxe's book of Martyrs before you continue to persue this conversation.
http://www3.calvarychapel.com/library/foxe-john/text/bom.htm
Originally posted by dj2beckerThe FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER prefers that we live for Him, rather than die for Him. Seems like a win-win situation for eveyone, I'm thinking.
OK. OK. You win.
I suppose you and your five friends can worship the the Spaghetti man. No problem. It's your choice.
Just one question: Are you willing to die for your Spaghetti man?
I suggest you read Foxe's book of Martyrs before you continue to persue this conversation.
http://www3.calvarychapel.com/library/foxe-john/text/bom.htm
Originally posted by dj2beckerYou seem to be full of "just one questions".
Just one question: Are you willing to die for your Spaghetti man?
Willingness to die for a belief is in no way a confirmation that the belief is a universal truth. If it was, all the Islamic martyrs would lead to the conclusion that Allah is the truth and the way and the light, and praise be to him. At best, it's a ad populum fallacy.