Spirituality
11 May 10
15 Jul 10
Originally posted by KellyJaySomething beyond what would statistically happen anyway without prayer. Like the cancer experiment that was mentioned earlier.
Just so I know what do you think you should see if prayer works?
Kelly
It was also mentioned that we don't know how to use prayer and don't know what to look for. Our mind is good at spotting patterns (faces in clouds). We tend to forget times when things do not follow a certain pattern.
For example, "knowing" who it is when the phone rings and getting it right. When we get it wrong we do not take notice. Often we project back that we were thinking of this person after answering the phone.
15 Jul 10
Originally posted by lauseyI toss my Coin under the question "Will KellyJay respond in this thread?" The Coin flipped a "yes"!
Something beyond what would statistically happen anyway without prayer. Like the cancer experiment that was mentioned earlier.
It was also mentioned that we don't know how to use prayer and don't know what to look for. Our mind is good at spotting patterns (faces in clouds). We tend to forget times when things do not follow a certain pattern.
For exampl ...[text shortened]... otice. Often we project back that we were thinking of this person after answering the phone.
If he doesn't respond, then we forget about it.
But if he indeed does respond, I've proven scientifically that the Coin really knows about the future.
16 Jul 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadI think you are having an understanding issue with what I wrote. I only said that prayer has always worked in my life. Never once did I make a claim that prayer always works. It seems you are confused as to what I meant so I hope that clears it up for you.
The trick gtbiking4life used, was to claim that prayer always works, but that the result is not necessarily what was requested in the prayer, but instead a benefit to the person praying or the person prayed for. In some cases those benefits would not be visible to everyone.
So now the problem is to show that those who pray are in some way better off th ...[text shortened]... rse gtbiking4life cannot show the above it which is why he has to stick to feel good stories.
16 Jul 10
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadI don't have any evidence for you on this board which is also not evidence that prayer does not work either. I never claimed to have evidence though at least not something I can pull out of my back pocket. I also believe that flipping coins would not even come close to the results I have had by praying. Is this evidence for you or anyone else here? Not likely. I'm still good with that though and I strongly believe prayer has worked and helped me in my life. I don't believe flipping coins would have had even close to the same effect prayer has had in my life. Hope this answers your questions.
But would you concede that your belief that prayer works is not based on a scientific analysis of the results of prayer. ie you believe it works because of feel good stories not because you have any actual evidence that it works.
Would you also concede that if you believed in flipping coins you would have just as much evidence for it working as you do for prayer?
16 Jul 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasWhat a brilliant thing to do!
I toss my Coin under the question "Will KellyJay respond in this thread?" The Coin flipped a "yes"!
If he doesn't respond, then we forget about it.
But if he indeed does respond, I've proven scientifically that the Coin really knows about the future.
16 Jul 10
Originally posted by gtbiking4lifeI realize all that. But what you don't seem to realize is that you too do not have any evidence that is reliable enough that you yourself should be relying on it. If you believe prayer works it should be solely based on your beliefs as a Christian, not because of any results you think you may have. If the results were tangible enough to be relied upon you would have been able to explain the evidence, but you cant.
I don't have any evidence for you on this board which is also not evidence that prayer does not work either. I never claimed to have evidence though at least not something I can pull out of my back pocket. I also believe that flipping coins would not even come close to the results I have had by praying. Is this evidence for you or anyone else here? Not ...[text shortened]... ad even close to the same effect prayer has had in my life. Hope this answers your questions.
I also wonder what was the purpose of the feel good stories? You admit that they prove nothing, and indicate nothing. So whats the point? An attempt at deception?
17 Jul 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadIt depends on what you believe reliable is I suppose. Just one example – what are the chances the puppies shoulder would have healed by itself that quickly?
I realize all that. But what you don't seem to realize is that you too do not have any evidence that is reliable enough that you yourself should be relying on it. If you believe prayer works it should be solely based on your beliefs as a Christian, not because of any results you think you may have. If the results were tangible enough to be relied upon you ...[text shortened]... mit that they prove nothing, and indicate nothing. So whats the point? An attempt at deception?
If you flip a coin and you are right 50% of the time, I can understand why you may say, you have a 50% chance of being right. Take that coin and suppose you toss the coin a hundred times and every time, the coin worked. How many times would it take for you to believe in the coin - not mentioning you would probable inspect the coin to see if it’s faulty – but what if it isn’t? Would you start to believe in this coin?
Another example – you go see a Doctor. The Doctor wants to run some tests to find out if you have cancer. The results are negative. You have some sort of faith by believing this DR is right. However, you want to confirm (this is your life after all and want to be sure). You see another Dr…and another…and another. You made the rounds and saw numerous DRs who all ran tests and gave you the same answer. Now you can be pretty sure the DRs are right – what are the chances of every DR you saw being wrong?
Prayer has worked similar in my life. This is much more than what a coin could have accomplished. Due to my experiences, I have a personal testimony that prayer has worked and a coin flip would in no way have had the same result. It’s fine if you don’t believe, but I do.
17 Jul 10
1 edit
Originally posted by gtbiking4lifeIf a billion people all pray for something that has likelyhood 1 in a billion, then supposing one person gets lucky, they will be convinced their prayer worked. You're one of the lucky ones.
It depends on what you believe reliable is I suppose. Just one example – what are the chances the puppies shoulder would have healed by itself that quickly?
If you flip a coin and you are right 50% of the time, I can understand why you may say, you have a 50% chance of being right. Take that coin and suppose you toss the coin a hundred times and ev ...[text shortened]... a coin flip would in no way have had the same result. It’s fine if you don’t believe, but I do.
17 Jul 10
Originally posted by AgergI don't believe luck has anything to do with it my friend. I guess using your logic I have been that one in a billion lucky guy many times. *shrug*
If a billion people all pray for something that has likelyhood 1 in a billion, then supposing one person gets lucky, they will be convinced their prayer worked. You're one of the lucky ones.
I don't look at it that way though. I'm just some average smug who loves God with all his heart, might, mind, and strength. I believe in Him.
17 Jul 10
1 edit
Originally posted by gtbiking4lifeThat billion to one chance I should add may be the probability of more than one unlikely thing occuring (ie: getting ten heads in a row, 3 times in a row). Moreover those billion people aren't going to be praying just once. Basically with so many trials it stands to reason that some should encounter successes; and as has been mentioned by others, you no doubt forget the failures.
I don't believe luck has anything to do with it my friend. I guess using your logic I have been that one in a billion lucky guy many times. *shrug*
I don't look at it that way though. I'm just some average smug who loves God with all his heart, might, mind, and strength. I believe in Him.
17 Jul 10
Originally posted by AgergYep - my failures came when I didn't pray.
That billion to one chance I should add may be the probability of more than one unlikely thing occuring (ie: getting ten heads in a row, 3 times in a row). Moreover those billion people aren't going to be praying just once. Basically with so many trials it stands to reason that some should encounter successes; and as has been mentioned by others, you no doubt forget the failures.
17 Jul 10
1 edit
Originally posted by gtbiking4lifeYeah but no God stepped into to help them, so present or not we can say that any prayers they didn't burn alive or get crushed as the buildings collapsed or spared by a fortuitous landing as they jumped were not answered in their favour.
I wasn't there. Typically I try not to conclude about anything I have no experience in.