JWs and 1000 cases of child sex abuse

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Thankyou once again, FMF's transparently dishonest insinuations have no traction here. His propensity for dishonestly misrepresenting what people have actually said in order to attack others is well known and understood and stand as little more than a testimony to his tedious posting style and his odious presence here. I repeat it again he has noth ...[text shortened]... ors don't like to refer to these facts, they are after all a rather inconvenient truth for them.

As for the actual issue, Jehovahs witnesses have in comparison to other religious bodies and society as a whole a much smaller instance of child abuse, being well below either of them.

Come now Robert, you know you can't make claims like that without presenting some sort of empirical evidence.

As for allegations of a coverup, the evidence speaks for itself. Court cases in the US, UK and now Australia quite clearly show that a significant number of child abusers within JW congregations have not been reported to the authorities. This is fact, and is really an inconvenient truth you seem to ignore.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
As for the actual issue, Jehovahs witnesses have in comparison to other religious bodies and society as a whole a much smaller instance of child abuse, being well below either of them.

You are of course missing the point of the OP and I suspect, quite deliberately. Which is that your church leadership is begin called out as being as flawed as all the others destitute corporate monoliths. A situation which is compounded by the JW leadership's willingness to cling to a 2nd century law in order to justify the blatant incompetence in reporting and the possible covering up of child sex abuse with it's ranks.

You would do much better by calling out the filth from among you and standing up for the victims instead of bleating on about FMF and petty squabbles in the General forum.

Originally posted by FMF
I was commenting on the excuse that robbie was using to dodge the OP issue.

I am well aware of that.

Apparently, divegeester was not entitled to discuss this issue with robbie because of his moral shortcomings on another forum.
But what he did not do, which you claimed he did, was draw a parallel between divegeester's behaviour and child molestation.

If you think robbie is discussing this serious issue in good faith then so be it.
I do not. But I don't think you or divegeester are either.

Originally posted by FMF
robbie will be referring back to your clumsy and disingenuous intervention on this thread for years, much to your discomfort, I'd wager. It'll be interesting. 😉

Robbie can do whatever he pleases. But my intervention was neither clumsy nor disingenuous. You made a false accusation and I called you on it and rather than simply say you misspoke or didn't think it through you have spent your time trying to dig the hole deeper. Now you would like me to believe that I should just drop it because otherwise I might be giving fodder to Robbie.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
As for the actual issue, Jehovahs witnesses have in comparison to other religious bodies and society as a whole a much smaller instance of child abuse, being well below either of them.

How could you know this? Are child abuse statistics internally circulated for members only? If not, then you must be relying on public statistics which if they do show that JWs have a lower incidence of reported child abuse only goes to indicate that the charge of cover ups is valid.

Originally posted by twhitehead
How could you know this? Are child abuse statistics internally circulated for members only? If not, then you must be relying on public statistics which if they do show that JWs have a lower incidence of reported child abuse only goes to indicate that the charge of cover ups is valid.

Its a simple matter of comparing the number of cases that have come to court. Catholics have many thousands, Protestant denominations many hundreds, in the USA. By comparison Jehovahs witnesses have a relatively small number. Anyone is free to go to the courts if they have been the victim of abuse or know of any abuse.

In the United States, over 80,000 elders currently serve in over 12,300 congregations … During the last 100 years, only eleven elders have been sued for child abuse in thirteen lawsuits filed in the United States; In seven of these lawsuits against the elders, accusations against the Watchtower Society itself were dismissed by the courts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses'_handling_of_child_sex_abuse

This of course is still eleven too many, but by comparison to other religious denominations and society as a whole its a comparatively small number.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Its a simple matter of comparing the number of cases that have come to court. Catholics have many thousands, Protestant denominations many hundreds, in the USA. By comparison Jehovahs witnesses have a relatively small number. Anyone is free to go to the courts if they have been the victim of abuse or know of any abuse.

In the United States, ov ...[text shortened]... arison to other religious denominations and society as a whole its a comparatively small number.

Doesn't this sordid disgraceful behaviour by some of the most congregational influential leaders of your church make you question the validity of their claim that they are the sole holders of God's truth on earth?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
[b]As for the actual issue, Jehovahs witnesses have in comparison to other religious bodies and society as a whole a much smaller instance of child abuse, being well below either of them.

Come now Robert, you know you can't make claims like that without presenting some sort of empirical evidence.

As for allegations of a coverup, the evidence s ...[text shortened]... ported to the authorities. This is fact, and is really an inconvenient truth you seem to ignore.[/b]

a significant number? how many are we talking Proper Knob for as far as i can tell by reading the wikipedia article there have been eleven cases in the USA in the last one hundred years that have come to court and since 2000 less than ten elsewhere. I think that even a zoob like you would consider that its a relatively small number considering that we now number 8.2 million persons worldwide in 115,416 congregations! Infact I suggest to you that this relatively small percentage is another inconvenient truth for you!

The matter is far more complicated than the tabloid style bilge water that divesh8ter tries to utilize because he hates Jehovahs Witnesses.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
The matter is far more complicated than the tabloid style bilge water that divesh8ter tries to utilize because he hates Jehovahs Witnesses.

My posting on this matter has been nothing of the sort and flaming ad hominem insults around by page 4 is revealing, as is your inability to acknowledge the serious criminal problems within your own religious organisation.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Its a simple matter of comparing the number of cases that have come to court.

Well then your judgement is based on a flawed methodology. You are wrongly assuming that all incidences of child molestation end up in court. This thread is about precisely the point that many of them do not because they are not reported to the authorities. All you would have demonstrated (if you hadn't made other glaring errors) is that JWs are far less likely to report cases to the authorities.

Catholics have many thousands, Protestant denominations many hundreds, in the USA. By comparison Jehovahs witnesses have a relatively small number.
That is because JWs are a relatively small denomination.

Anyone is free to go to the courts if they have been the victim of abuse or know of any abuse.
Are they? That very much depends on your definition of 'free to'. It is my understanding that many child molestation victims (and parents) do not take it to court for a variety of social reasons not least of which might be pressure from religious leaders not to do so.

In the United States, over 80,000 elders currently serve in over 12,300 congregations … During the last 100 years, only eleven elders have been sued for child abuse in thirteen lawsuits filed in the United States; In seven of these lawsuits against the elders, accusations against the Watchtower Society itself were dismissed by the courts.
You seem to be confused about what the issue is here. It is not about accusations against elders, but accusations in general within the JW community and your earlier claim of lower incidences did not specify 'child abuse by elders'.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Robbie can do whatever he pleases. But my intervention was neither clumsy nor disingenuous. You made a false accusation and I called you on it and rather than simply say you misspoke or didn't think it through you have spent your time trying to dig the hole deeper. Now you would like me to believe that I should just drop it because otherwise I might be giving fodder to Robbie.

I made no false accusation. Robbie said what he said. What does General Forum "morality" have to do with addressing or not addressing the OP of this thread?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Its a simple matter of comparing the number of cases that have come to court. Catholics have many thousands, Protestant denominations many hundreds, in the USA. By comparison Jehovahs witnesses have a relatively small number. Anyone is free to go to the courts if they have been the victim of abuse or know of any abuse.

How many instances of child abuse are kept secret each year? What figures does your organization publish?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I think that even a zoob like you would consider that its a relatively small number considering that we now number 8.2 million persons worldwide in 115,416 congregations! Infact I suggest to you that this relatively small percentage is another inconvenient truth for you!

How many cases are dealt with 'internally', so to speak, and not reported to the authorities?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Well then your judgement is based on a flawed methodology. You are wrongly assuming that all incidences of child molestation end up in court. This thread is about precisely the point that many of them do not because they are not reported to the authorities. All you would have demonstrated (if you hadn't made other glaring errors) is that JWs are far less ...[text shortened]... JW community and your earlier claim of lower incidences did not specify 'child abuse by elders'.

No, its not flawed because these are the only reliable figures to go upon otherwise we shall be compelled to simply assume figures. These are the facts concerning convicted child molesters.

Anyone is free to report any criminal activity to the courts, the fact of the matter is as i have admirably shown, despite this freedom there have been a relatively few convictions. What is in fact flawed is to assume and lets be clear thats what it amounts to is that this relativity small percentage exists because there has been either a cover up or a lack of compliance with secular authorities.

So let us be clear as far as convicted acts of child molestation go Jehovah's witnesses as an organization have a relatively small incidence in comparison to other denominations and society as a whole. Now this begs the question therefore why are they now being singled out? The answer of course is that they are hated by people like divesgeester.

That we are a small denomination? let us take therefore take a denomination of the same size. There are roughly eight million Catholics in Ireland, there are roughly eight million witnesses, What are the statistical comparison?

A lengthy report detailing cases of emotional, physical and sexual abuse of thousands of children over 70 years was published on 20 May 2009. The report drew on the testimony of nearly 2,000 witnesses, men and women who attended more than 200 Catholic-run schools from the 1930s until the 1990s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Ireland

The assertion therefore that the numbers are small because we are a relatively small denomination is now demonstrably false, by comparison with another denomination, in this case Catholicism which has shown a much higher incidence rate.

'Free to', is a vain semantic argument and unworthy of my comments.

I am not confused about anything, we must work with what facts we have and those facts concern the elder arrangement of Jehovahs Witnesses for those are the ones that deal with instances like child molestation and apart from the perpetrator may also be held liable for reporting or lack of as the case may be.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
no, its not flawed because these are the only reliable figures to go upon otherwise we shall be compelled to simply assume figures.

How many cases are not reported to law enforcement authorities each year?