Incarnations of the "Beast"

Originally posted by divegeester
I could give you a fistful of scriptures that prove your assertion wrong, but this one will probably be sufficient:

Romans 13:1 NKJ
[b]"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God"

NIV version for contrast:
"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, ...[text shortened]... ept that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God"[/b]

Beasts are symbolically used in the Bible to represent governments. One examle is found at:
(Daniel 8:20-22) “The two-horned ram that you saw stands for the kings of Meʹdi·a and Persia. 21 The hairy male goat stands for the king of Greece; and the great horn that was between its eyes stands for the first king.

The scriptures you mentioned show that Jehovah has allowed or permitted Satan to set up governments that would bring some benefits to people.
Jehovah knew from the start that these would fail and that in His due time they would be destroyed and replaced by a Kingdom through His Son Christ Jesus.
We need to be law abiding citizens of whatever country we live in until then.

Originally posted by roigam
The scriptures you mentioned show that Jehovah has allowed or permitted Satan to set up governments that would bring some benefits to people. [...] We need to be law abiding citizens of whatever country we live in until then.

This might explain Watch Tower Society president J.F. Rutherford's support for Hitler. Realpolitik is perhaps the appropriate word for it.

Originally posted by FMF
This might explain Watch Tower Society president J.F. Rutherford's support for Hitler. Realpolitik is perhaps the appropriate word for it.

ob smatz ker patz

Originally posted by roigam
Beasts are symbolically used in the Bible to represent governments. One examle is found at:
(Daniel 8:20-22) “The two-horned ram that you saw stands for the kings of Meʹdi·a and Persia. 21 The hairy male goat stands for the king of Greece; and the great horn that was between its eyes stands for the first king.

The scriptures you mentioned show that Jeho ...[text shortened]... Son Christ Jesus.
We need to be law abiding citizens of whatever country we live in until then.

The scripture is cited says that governments are "higher powers ordained by God" and yet you say they are "governments set up by Satan"

Which is correct?

Originally posted by divegeester
The scripture is cited says that governments are "higher powers ordained by God" and yet you say they are "governments set up by Satan"

Which is correct?

I refer again to (Luke 4:5, 6) So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time. 6 Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.

God has allowed Satan to have that authority over the earth's governments to show that Satan cannot rule successfully and the world conditions show clearly that the True God Jehovah was right.

It's God's answer to the challenge Satan raised in the Garden of Eden!

Originally posted by roigam
I refer again to (Luke 4:5, 6) So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time. 6 Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.

God has allowed Satan to have that authority over the earth's government ...[text shortened]... God Jehovah was right.

It's God's answer to the challenge Satan raised in the Garden of Eden!

Ok, let me try another angle to make the point; the scripture I cited commands that "every soul should be subject" to these authorities.

Are you subject to them?

Originally posted by divegeester
Can you think of any world leader in history who has maintained their position by giving power away and decentralising power?

Yes the emperor Diocletian, when Rome was split into the Eastern and Western Empires, and they switched to a system with four Emperors - two senior Emperors, called Augusti, and two junior Emperors who were called Caesars.

Originally posted by DeepThought
Yes the emperor Diocletian, when Rome was split into the Eastern and Western Empires, and they switched to a system with four Emperors - two senior Emperors, called Augusti, and two junior Emperors who were called Caesars.

Interesting; sounds like the move was out of necessity rather than preference though. I'm sure whodey would enjoy his leadership.

Originally posted by roigam
ob smatz ker patz

You've used this a few times; is it your catch-phrase?

Originally posted by roigam
ob smatz ker patz

Well, a mere silly retort doesn't answer the question: Was Rutherford's support for Hitler an example of realpolitik on the part of the Watch Tower Society or not? Is it an example of your suggestion that members of your organisation "...need to be law abiding citizens of whatever country we live in..."?

Originally posted by divegeester
Ok, let me try another angle to make the point; the scripture I cited commands that "every soul should be subject" to these authorities.

Are you subject to them?

If you check my previous post you will see that we need to be law abiding citizens of whatever country we live in.
Our living according to those governments shows our respect for what Jehovah has allowed Satan to do on earth.
Jehovah allowed this arrangement to disprove Satan's claim in effect that he could be a better ruler than Jehovah.
World conditions show Jehovah was right and Satan was wrong.
For us, we obey the superior authorities until Jehovah does away with them even if we don"t agree with what they do.
As Jesus said so succinctly:
(Matthew 22:19-22) Show me the tax coin.” They brought him a de·narʹi·us. 20 He said to them: “Whose image and inscription is this?” 21 They said: “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them: “Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” 22 When they heard that, they were amazed, and they left him and went away.

Originally posted by roigam
If you check my previous post you will see that we need to be law abiding citizens of whatever country we live in.
Our living according to those governments shows our respect for what Jehovah has allowed Satan to do on earth.
Jehovah allowed this arrangement to disprove Satan's claim in effect that he could be a better ruler than Jehovah.
World conditions ...[text shortened]... od’s things to God.” 22 When they heard that, they were amazed, and they left him and went away.

Is that a "yes you agree that you should submit to these authorities"?

Originally posted by divegeester
Is that a "yes you agree that you should submit to these authorities"?

Yes, as long as they don't ask us to go against Jehovah's rightful commands. For example if they tell us not to preach, we continue to preach. Somethimes the authorities put us in jail. It gives us more people to prach to. That has resulted in increses in many countries.

Originally posted by roigam
Beasts are symbolically used in the Bible to represent governments. One examle is found at:
(Daniel 8:20-22) “The two-horned ram that you saw stands for the kings of Meʹdi·a and Persia. 21 The hairy male goat stands for the king of Greece; and the great horn that was between its eyes stands for the first king.

The scriptures you mentioned show that Jeho ...[text shortened]... Son Christ Jesus.
We need to be law abiding citizens of whatever country we live in until then.

I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth.

(Daniel 7:16-17 NASB)

Originally posted by roigam
Yes, as long as they don't ask us to go against Jehovah's rightful commands.

That's not really submitting then is it? What if the authority you were "submitting" to decided that preaching against blood transfusions was prohibited, would you obey that edict?