Incarnations of the "Beast"

Originally posted by Suzianne
The two groups he mentions are the one in Rev. 7:4 and the one in Rev. 14:1. They are the same group, numbered 144,000.

The other group you mention from Rev. 7:9 is vastly different. A great multitude, which no man could number, cannot be a group with a number, the 144,000. They are not the elite, or the select. They have earned their place by sheddi ...[text shortened]... ocaust. Their number could reach a billion, spread out over every nation on earth at that time.

I guess you missed:
(Psalm 37:9-11) For evil men will be done away with, But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth. 10 Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. 11 But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
(Psalm 37:29) The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it.
(Psalm 37:34) Hope in Jehovah and follow his way, And he will exalt you to take possession of the earth. When the wicked are done away with, you will see it.

That shows you too where the larger group is after the wicked are destroyed.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The END of the Tribulation.

That's correct. After the Tribulation ends Armageddon will come.
That's when this whole rotten system will be destroyed.
(1 John 3:8b) .... For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil.

Originally posted by Suzianne
The two groups he mentions are the one in Rev. 7:4 and the one in Rev. 14:1. They are the same group, numbered 144,000.

The other group you mention from Rev. 7:9 is vastly different. A great multitude, which no man could number, cannot be a group with a number, the 144,000. They are not the elite, or the select. They have earned their place by sheddi ...[text shortened]... ocaust. Their number could reach a billion, spread out over every nation on earth at that time.

Maybe I misunderstood what he was saying, but he also made reference to Revelation 7:14b. Anyway, I hope I cleared it up for him. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
Maybe I misunderstood what he was saying, but he also made reference to Revelation 7:14b. Anyway, I hope I cleared it up for him. 😏

To be precise, there are two groups of faithful followers of Christ.
1) re 14:1 id s 144,000 who are on Heavenly Mt. Zion with Jesus.
2) re 7:9,13 id s a large numberless group who survive the Great Tribulation on Earth.
They will be as Psalms states:
(Psalm 37:10, 11) Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. 11 But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
(Psalm 37:29) The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it.
What a wonderful reward for being faithful!

Originally posted by roigam
To be precise, there are two groups of faithful followers of Christ.
1) re 14:1 id s 144,000 who are on Heavenly Mt. Zion with Jesus.
2) re 7:9,13 id s a large numberless group who survive the Great Tribulation on Earth.
They will be as Psalms states:
(Psalm 37:10, 11) Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where the ...[text shortened]... ossess the earth, And they will live forever on it.
What a wonderful reward for being faithful!

1) It is the 144,000 descendants of the tribes of Israel that survive the Great Tribulation because they have the seal of the living God as protection on their foreheads.
2) The large numberless group do not survive the Great Tribulation, They are Christian from all nations that are slain because of there testimony of Christ.

See my post on the previous page for scripture references. Suzianne points out the same thing in response to my post. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
1) It is the 144,000 descendants of the tribes of Israel that survive the Great Tribulation because they have the seal of the living God as protection on their foreheads.
2) The large numberless group do not survive the Great Tribulation, They are Christian from all nations that are slain because of there testimony of Christ.

See my post on the previous page for scripture references. Suzianne points out the same thing in response to my post. 😏

In this, you are correct, Ron.

Precious few will survive the Tribulation. Certainly not the unnumbered multitude.

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." -- Matthew 24:21-22, KJV

Originally posted by Suzianne
In this, you are correct, Ron.

Precious few will survive the Tribulation. Certainly not the unnumbered multitude.

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." -- Matthew 24:21-22, KJV

This must be the first thing I have ever been correct on in your opinion. Put it on your calendar as an historic date to remember. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
This must be the first thing I have ever been correct on in your opinion. Put it on your calendar as an historic date to remember. 😏

As for group 1) the tribes listed in revelation 7:4-8 are not literal Israel. They are not the same tribes as listed at Numbers 1:4-16.
There never was a tribe of Joseph.
The tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not on this list.
The Levites were never included as one of the 12 tribes.

The tribes here are spiritual Israel as Paul described at:
(Romans 2:28, 29) For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart ...
(Galatians 6:15, 16) For neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is. 16 As for all those who walk orderly by this rule of conduct, peace and mercy be upon them, yes, upon the "Israel of God".

As for group 2) (Revelation 7:14b) So right away I said to him: “... And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
It is clear that they have survived the Great Tribulation.

Originally posted by roigam
As for group 1) the tribes listed in revelation 7:4-8 are not literal Israel. They are not the same tribes as listed at Numbers 1:4-16.
There never was a tribe of Joseph.
The tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not on this list.
The Levites were never included as one of the 12 tribes.

The tribes here are spiritual Israel as Paul described at:
(Romans 2:28, ...[text shortened]... them white in the blood of the Lamb.
It is clear that they have survived the Great Tribulation.

The original tribes of Israel (Jacob) were headed by the 12 sons of Jacob. They were Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin.

However, as the priestly Tribe, Levi was given no land. (Num 18:20, 18:24) Instead of land, God gave Levi the tithes of the people of Israel.

By Jacob's command (Genesis 48:5), Joseph's sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, were regarded as de facto "Tribes" of Israel. Thus, the land allocations of Joseph and Levi were given instead to Ephraim and Manasseh, preserving *twelve* as the number of tribes. (Joshua 14:3-4).

http://www.biblestudy101.org/Lists/12tribes.html

That is how you get the tribes as listed at Numbers 1:4-16.

Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Asher, Gad, Naphtali, Dan, Joseph (included Ephraim and Manasseh the sons of Joseph who were given a special blessing by Jacob).

So you see that things have changed over that short period of time as it has with the list of the heads of the 12 tribes in the last days as listed in Revelation 7. Because of idolatry and refusal to live by God's law, Ephraim is replaced by his father Joseph and Dan is replaced by Levi.

The sons of Ephraim were archers equipped with bows, Yet they turned back in the day of battle. They did not keep the covenant of God And refused to walk in His law;

(Psalm 78:9-10 NASB)

As for Ephraim, their glory will fly away like a bird-- No birth, no pregnancy and no conception! Though they bring up their children, Yet I will bereave them until not a man is left. Yes, woe to them indeed when I depart from them! ... All their evil is at Gilgal; Indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels. Ephraim is stricken, their root is dried up, They will bear no fruit. Even though they bear children, I will slay the precious ones of their womb. My God will cast them away Because they have not listened to Him; And they will be wanderers among the nations.

(Hosea 9:11-12, 15-17 NASB)

Also the tribe of Dan set up idols and their own priests in their new city instead of using the Levites. (Judges 18:30-31). King Jeroboam set up two golden calves in Bethel and in Dan, which "became a sin"; people went to Dan to worship there (1 Kings 12:28-30).

Originally posted by RJHinds
The original tribes of Israel (Jacob) were headed by the 12 sons of Jacob. They were Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin.

However, as the priestly Tribe, Levi was given no land. (Num 18:20, 18:24) Instead of land, God gave Levi the tithes of the people of Israel.

By Jacob's command (Genesis ...[text shortened]... Bethel and in Dan, which "became a sin"; people went to Dan to worship there (1 Kings 12:28-30).

I'm sorry but the change you refer to is not written anywhere in the Bible.
You are assuming things. The literal Israel was rejected by Jehovah when they impaled His Son, the promised Messiah, Jesus Christ.

(Acts 15:14-20) Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written: 16 ‘After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that is fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, 17 so that the men who remain may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.’ 19 Therefore, my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, 20 but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood.

You did not comment on the "Israel of God" that Paul mentioned. He also said in Galatians 4, "22 For example, it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the servant girl and one by the free woman; 23 but the one by the servant girl was actually born through natural descent and the other by the free woman through a promise. 24 These things may be taken as a symbolic drama; for these women mean two covenants, the one from Mount Siʹnai, which bears children for slavery and which is Haʹgar. 25 Now Haʹgar means Siʹnai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

Originally posted by roigam
I'm sorry but the change you refer to is not written anywhere in the Bible.
You are assuming things. The literal Israel was rejected by Jehovah when they impaled His Son, the promised Messiah, Jesus Christ.

(Acts 15:14-20) Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his n ...[text shortened]... she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

"Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE." But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."

In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written,

"GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

"THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB. "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

(Romans 11:1-8, 11-12, 14-27 NASB)

Originally posted by RJHinds

I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

"Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, T ...[text shortened]... Y COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

(Romans 11:1-8, 11-12, 14-27 NASB)

(Matthew 3:10) The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.
Jesus said this in referrence to the Nation of Israel.
He was their rightful King as the descendant of King David but they rejected him.
The Nation as a whole were rejected because of that but, individuals were not.
(Revelation 7:9) After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of "all" nations and "tribes" and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
So the way to everlasting life is still open to all on an individual basis
Jehovah has a new Israel, spiritual Israel, and the Christian Congregation of individuls who have dedicated themselves to Him "consciously" not being dedicated by being born into it as the literal Israelites were or as those in Christendom are when they are baptized as babies.

Originally posted by roigam
(Matthew 3:10) The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.
Jesus said this in referrence to the Nation of Israel.
He was their rightful King as the descendant of King David but they rejected him.
The Nation as a whole were rejected because of that but, indi ...[text shortened]... as the literal Israelites were or as those in Christendom are when they are baptized as babies.

You still do not understand. It must be because of your indoctrination. What a shame.

Originally posted by roigam
As for group 2) (Revelation 7:14b) So right away I said to him: “... And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
It is clear that they have survived the Great Tribulation.

And why would they need to wash their robes?

Because they are blood-stained from their deaths during the tribulation. This is in addition to the standard meaning of: "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." -- Isaiah 1:18

Human blood is as sin, the blood of the Lamb redeems.

It is clear that they do not survive.

Originally posted by Suzianne
And why would they need to wash their robes?

Because they are blood-stained from their deaths during the tribulation. This is in addition to the standard meaning of: "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." -- Isaiah 1:18

Human blood is as sin, the blood of the Lamb redeems.

It is clear that they do not survive.

Only if you totally deny the Bible. (Revelation 7:14) ... And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, ...