19 Nov 13
4 edits
"See this is my problem with this...
You say that you want to "stimulate fresh thinking...
And you want me to "entertain new options"...
And yet you post tired old quotes by people asking that same dumb questions and
misconceptions (and in some cases outright lies) that theists have been coming
up with for centuries. [Some new; some old but still relevant.]
I have to ask... Did you genuinely believe that ANY of the quotes you posted in
your OP contained any thought, or question, that those of us atheists who are interested
in debating these issues haven't heard a thousand times before? [Yes.]
And even though these thoughts of others you quoted are tired and old I DID entertain
them. I took the time to carefully go through them, think about them, and come up with
arguments for why they were wrong. You are welcome to disagree with my arguments
and you can propose counter arguments of your own.
But it's rather hypocritical of you to claim I didn't think about them after I took the time
to not only think about them (again) and produce rebuttals.
When you have not only failed to acknowledge my arguments, you didn't even bother to read
them and then claimed I had just dismissed your points out of hand. [I like your fire; it's an asset.
Wordiness weakens your arguments and lessens interest in responding because of the preliminary
sorting required.] That's YOUR M.O. not mine." -googlefudge (previous page)
Your Key Questions: 1... 2... 3....
19 Nov 13
4 edits
Originally posted by googlefudgeIn one concise paragraph statement, please help me grasp the concept of 'god' as a figment* of some dream or trance experienced by a well intentioned/misinformed priest or philosopher in the ancient world. I will listen with care.
This argument basically boils down to ...
"I think it would suck if god didn't exist. Therefore I will believe that god exists."
An argument William Lane Craig is very fond of.
To me, whenever I see this argument I hear...
"I want to believe what makes me feel good regardless of whether its true or not."
My position is that there is no req ...[text shortened]... without god would suck.
I say so what? That makes no difference to whether it's true or not.
Note: *Or by any other set of facts or rationale, argument or debater's technique you choose.
19 Nov 13
Originally posted by Grampy BobbySo basically you ignored googlefudges response and refuse to discuss it as per usual.
"So my questions to you are:
Do you think they got it wrong? [No.] What did you think when you started the thread, [Motive was to enable intelligent, published authors to present the summary findings and conclusions of their life long endeavors to apprehend absolute truth to us in absentia. Why? To stimulate fresh thinking and to elevate this forum' ...[text shortened]... isciplines along with well established points of view. I hoped he would entertain new options.]"
The authors in question may be intelligent and published, but there can be no doubt that they got it wrong in the given quotes. That you still say that you think they got it right can only mean that you are deaf as you can't possibly have read googlefudges response and still think they got it right.
19 Nov 13
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyLaidlaw makes an unfounded assertion.
[b]Did Laidlaw, Broun, Stoppard, Chesterton and Goethe get it wrong?
1) "God exists whether or not men may choose to believe in Him. The reason why many people do not believe in God is not so much that it is intellectually impossible to believe in God, but because belief in God forces that thoughtful person to face the fact that he is accountable ...[text shortened]... hen a man finally decides that he is not God." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe) Your thoughtful replies?[/b]
Broun exaggerates but there's something in what he says, although so what.
Stoppard: persuasive rhetoric, unfounded assumption.
Chesterton: witty but presumptive.
Goethe: Absolutely. This statement maintains the possibility of faith without spelling out faith-in-what. Unbound to creed, unshackled by dogma (religious, positivist, empiricist or otherwise), open to creative interpretation. Camus would have wholeheartedly approved.
19 Nov 13
Originally posted by googlefudgeIn my experience the majority of church attenders seldom if ever speak about God. They just listen to the preacher ... Motivated Catholics will tend to be more focused on performing charitable acts than yakking on about God, although they'll of course join in the liturgy etc (not sure if that counts as "talking about God"😉. On the other hand I have a number of friends sometimes sufficiently tiresome to yak on about the non-existence of God. So your expectation is unfounded in my experience, although things might well be different in your neck of the woods, wherever that is.
2) "Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God."
-Heywood Broun;
Well I don't have any statistics on this, however I would generally expect that a theist who regularly goes to
church and really genuinely believes that god/s exist will mention and talk about (or to) gods a deal more often
than people who don't go to church or believe god/s exist.
19 Nov 13
Originally posted by Bosse de NageBosse, you're a well read individual with eclectic interests and cosmopolitan tastes. In your considered opinion, which among all those of theist persuasion who've published [if any] makes sense? Also, what's your take on the quotes from C.S. Lewis?
Laidlaw makes an unfounded assertion.
Broun exaggerates but there's something in what he says, although so what.
Stoppard: persuasive rhetoric, unfounded assumption.
Chesterton: witty but presumptive.
Goethe: Absolutely. This statement maintains the possibility of faith without spelling out faith-in-what. Unbound to creed, unshackled by dog ...[text shortened]... ricist or otherwise), open to creative interpretation. Camus would have wholeheartedly approved.
19 Nov 13
Originally posted by Bosse de NageHave you noticed that the preponderance of contributors to this conversation are self described as atheists?
In my experience the majority of church attenders seldom if ever speak about God. They just listen to the preacher ... Motivated Catholics will tend to be more focused on performing charitable acts than yakking on about God, although they'll of course join in the liturgy etc (not sure if that counts as "talking about God"😉. On the other hand I have a n ...[text shortened]... experience, although things might well be different in your neck of the woods, wherever that is.
19 Nov 13
Originally posted by twhiteheadtwhitehead, googlefudge speaks quite adequately for himself. Please note your own reasons for asserting "The authors in question may be intelligent and published, but there can be no doubt that they got it wrong in the given quotes." Thanks.
So basically you ignored googlefudges response and refuse to discuss it as per usual.
The authors in question may be intelligent and published, but there can be no doubt that they got it wrong in the given quotes. That you still say that you think they got it right can only mean that you are deaf as you can't possibly have read googlefudges response and still think they got it right.
19 Nov 13
Did Solzhenitsyn and Kennedy offer useful, applicable insights?
"Everything you add to the truth subtracts from the truth. When truth is discovered by someone else, it loses something of its attractiveness." -Alexander Solzhenitsyn
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie (deliberate, contrived, and dishonest) but the myth (persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic)." -John F. Kennedy.
19 Nov 13
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyIts not at all surprising. Theists can't agree with the quotes without looking stupid, and can't disagree with them without looking like they disagree with a fellow theist.
Have you noticed that the preponderance of contributors to this conversation are self described as atheists?
19 Nov 13
Originally posted by twhitehead"Its not at all surprising. Theists can't agree with the quotes without looking stupid, and can't disagree with them without looking like they disagree with a fellow theist." -twhitehead
Its not at all surprising. Theists can't agree with the quotes without looking stupid, and can't disagree with them without looking like they disagree with a fellow theist.
We're examining ideas within quotations, not the personal failures of those with whom we disagree. Let's elevate our focus.
"Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God." -Heywood Broun
19 Nov 13
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyC.S. Lewis I find trite.
Bosse, you're a well read individual with eclectic interests and cosmopolitan tastes. In your considered opinion, which among all those of theist persuasion who've published [if any] makes sense? Also, what's your take on the quotes from C.S. Lewis?
Are you asking me for my top ten of theist writers?
19 Nov 13
Originally posted by Bosse de Nage“A person hears only what they understand.” -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
They could easily agree with Goethe without looking stupid.
“Nine requisites for contented living:
Health enough to make work a pleasure.
Wealth enough to support your needs.
Strength to battle with difficulties and overcome them.
Grace enough to confess your sins and forsake them.
Patience enough to toil until some good is accomplished.
Charity enough to see some good in your neighbor.
Love enough to move you to be useful and helpful to others.
Faith enough to make real the things of God.
Hope enough to remove all anxious fears concerning the future.”
-Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
“There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity.” -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
"Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture,
and, if possible, speak a few sensible words." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
"If God had wanted me otherwise, He would have created me otherwise." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe