Originally posted by wolfgang59Originally posted by wolfgang59
I am the source of my own morality. Authority? I do not need anyone's authority!
"I am the source of my own morality. Authority? I do not need anyone's authority!"
5) "The greatest act of faith takes place when a man finally decides that he is not God." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)
"The real attitude of sin in the heart towards God is that of being without God; it is pride, the worship of myself, that is the great atheistic fact in human life." -Oswald Chambers;
Apparently you exemplify the mindset described in both Goethe and Chambers' points of view.
17 Nov 13
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyHow so?
Originally posted by wolfgang59
"I am the source of my own morality. Authority? I do not need anyone's authority!"
5) "The greatest act of faith takes place when a man finally decides that he is not God." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)
"The real attitude of sin in the heart towards God is that of being without God; [i]it is pride, the worship of ...[text shortened]... ;
Apparently you exemplify the mindset described in both Goethe and Chambers' points of view.
17 Nov 13
Originally posted by wolfgang59Originally posted by wolfgang59
How so?
"I am the source of my own morality. Authority? I do not need anyone's authority!"
5) "The greatest act of faith takes place when a man finally decides that he ["I do not need anyone's authority!"] is not God." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)
"The real attitude of sin in the heart towards God is that of being without God; it is pride, the worship of myself ["I do not need anyone's authority!"], that is the great atheistic fact in human life." -Oswald Chambers;
Apparently you exemplify the [mindset] described in both Goethe and Chambers' points of view.
17 Nov 13
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyIs that an echo I hear or the sound of a man who cannot substantiate his own opinions?
Originally posted by wolfgang59
"I am the source of my own morality. Authority? I do not need anyone's authority!"
5) "The greatest act of faith takes place when a man finally decides that he ["I do not need anyone's authority!"] is not God." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)
"The real attitude of sin in the heart towards God is that of being wi ...[text shortened]...
Apparently you exemplify the [mindset] described in both Goethe and Chambers' points of view.
17 Nov 13
Originally posted by wolfgang59"The Irrational Atheist: Dissecting the Unholy Trinity of Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens"
Do you get many words of wisdom from this racist, mysogynistic son of a felon?
(published 2008, 4 editions author: Vox Day pseudonym of Theodore Beale)
First acquaintance, wolfgang59; unaware of Beale's credentials and authorship until you piqued my curiosity. Thanks
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby"If you agree that, in the absence of God, you would commit robbery, rape and murder, you reveal yourself as an immoral person, and we would be well advised to steer a wide course around you. If, on the other hand, you admit that you would continue to be a good person even when not under divine surveillance, you have fatally undermined your claim that God is necessary for us to be good." The Science of Good and Evil by Michael Shermer
What would be the source of authority for their moral and ethical code?
17 Nov 13
Originally posted by Pianoman1Thought provoking. Without having been taught norms and standards, would I have a conscience; who knows what any of us would be capable of without the restraints of a learned morality code. Raises the questions: a) who sets the standards; b) are they provincial, national or universal; and c) are they absolute or relative, fixed or subject to arbitrarily change? Thanks.
"If you agree that, in the absence of God, you would commit robbery, rape and murder, you reveal yourself as an immoral person, and we would be well advised to steer a wide course around you. If, on the other hand, you admit that you would continue to be a good person even when not under divine surveillance, you have fatally undermined your claim that God is necessary for us to be good." The Science of Good and Evil by Michael Shermer
17 Nov 13
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyPeople often seem to confuse what morality is, with its interpretation and evaluation in specific situations.
Raises the questions: a) who sets the standards; b) are they provincial, national or universal; and c) are they absolute or relative, fixed or subject to arbitrarily change? Thanks.
Morality at its core, is very simple: recognizing that other people are just like you, and having empathy for them.
How we ourselves decide what is right and wrong for us to do, depends on how much we recognise others as equals.
We also have an instinctual tendency to give more recognition to those in our own group, so members of our family, community, country, church, religion, organization, race, or any other grouping will tend to be given priority in any moral evaluation we do.
We often recognize others rights to recognise the above grouping tendency as well as their right to self preservation.
All the above is universal - and much of the intricacies of it can be explained by evolution and not by theism.
The specific interpretation of specific situations is more cultural and thus relative to nationality, culture, group etc. A lot of behaviour that is often categorized under morality is not really related to empathy, but rather has to to with cultural norms.
17 Nov 13
Originally posted by twhitehead"Morality at its core, is very simple: recognizing that other people are just like you, and having empathy for them."
People often seem to confuse what morality is, with its interpretation and evaluation in specific situations.
Morality at its core, is very simple: recognizing that other people are just like you, and having empathy for them.
How we ourselves decide what is right and wrong for us to do, depends on how much we recognise others as equals.
We also have a ...[text shortened]... rized under morality is not really related to empathy, but rather has to to with cultural norms.
"... just like you" in which categories other than species?
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18 Nov 13
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyYes. They ALL get it wrong.
[b]Did Day, Lewis, Chambers, Lincoln and Gandhi also get it wrong?
"Still, even the most admirable of atheists is nothing more than a moral parasite, living his life based on borrowed ethics. This is why, when pressed, the atheist will often attempt to hide his lack of conviction in his own beliefs behind some poorly formulated utilitarianism, or ...[text shortened]... t person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists." -Mohandas Gandhi[/b]
Can I get a recognition from you that your first set has been shown to be
wrong before we move on to what I am sure is a very long list of theists
attacking atheists and atheism you have ready in your "quotes to attack
atheists with" handbook.
Because otherwise this 'conversation' is going to be spectacularly pointless.
It would also be nice to see you post your own thoughts in your own words
rather than just quote-mine others.
Because we can't debate these others you are quoting, only you.
18 Nov 13
Originally posted by googlefudgeA Christian is called such on the basis of his faith and confidence in the efficacy of the work completed on the cross by the Lord Jesus Christ.Did Laidlaw, Broun, Stoppard, Chesterton and Goethe get it wrong?
Yes. They got it wrong.
[quote]1) [i]"God exists whether or not men may choose to believe in Him. The reason why many people
do not believe in God is not so much that it is intellectually impossible to believe in God, but because
belief in God forces that thoughtfu ...[text shortened]... inking that you were a god.
So Goethe is wrong too.
So that's 5 for 5, all wrong.
Next?
A theist is called such on the basis of his belief in a god of some sort.
An atheist is called such on the basis of his decision regarding the question of God.
If atheism is a once-for-all matter, you might have a leg to stand upon, since no further maintenance is required. However, as you and other atheists have made abundantly clear, your rejection is not nearly enough: you must proselytize the world around you.
You simply cannot leave well enough alone.
18 Nov 13
Originally posted by googlefudge1) "God exists whether or not men may choose to believe in Him. The reason why many people do not believe in God is not so much that it is intellectually impossible to believe in God, but because belief in God forces that thoughtful person to face the fact that he is accountable to such a God." -Robert A. Laidlaw; 2) "Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God." -Heywood Broun; 3) "Atheism is a crutch for those who cannot bear the reality of God." -Tom Stoppard; 4) "If there were no God, there would be no Atheists." -G. K. Chesterton; 5) "The greatest act of faith takes place when a man finally decides that he is not God." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe) Your thoughtful replies?
Yes. They ALL get it wrong.
Can I get a recognition from you that your [b]first set has been shown to be
wrong before we move on to what I am sure is a very long list of theists
attacking atheists and atheism you have ready in your "quotes to attack
atheists with" handbook.
Because otherwise this 'conversation' is going to be spectacularl ...[text shortened]... er than just quote-mine others.
Because we can't debate these others you are quoting, only you.[/b]
"Yes. They ALL get it wrong." -googlefudge
"ALL"? Please replace this generalization with specific reasons why they're wrong, to which I'll reply.
Thanks for recognizing that we're attempting to have a conversation, not a college debate.
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18 Nov 13
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyYes, and it's a trivially easy question to answer, and one that we have answered
Appears his observation is similar, if not the same, as the one made in this quotation from my site profile:
"If God didn't exist, what possible difference would it make whether or not people put their faith in Him?" -JV
many times over.
Were you listening?
People believe in god and believe god tells them to kill gays and so they kill gays...
People believe in god and believe god tells them to kill the infidel and so they fly planes into skyscrapers...
People believe in god and believe god tells them they will be healed by prayer and so they pray for healing and die from treatable diseases because they never went to hospital...
People believe in god and believe god made the world and us in it and so deny the science that underpins our modern world and try to get it banned from schools...
People believe in god and believe god is the source of morality and so adhere to inflexible and out of date moralities invented in the bronze age that are no longer valid if they ever were...
People believe in god and believe god will cause an Armageddon soon that will kill everyone and send those who have sucked up to that god enough to heaven and those that haven't to hell... And so we don't have to worry about pollution or global warming and in fact its good to trash the planet because it will bring Armageddon sooner...
People believe in god and believe that god breaths life into an embryo upon conception and so oppose abortions even when women have been raped or their lives are at risk and leave them to die in agony when the pregnancy goes wrong rather than perform a medical operation that would save them but would abort the baby...
What people believe matters because it effects the decisions they make and those decisions, in ways great and small, effect not just themselves but everyone else around them.
And even if it only effected those who held these beliefs, from the outside looking in we can see the harm these beliefs do to those that hold them, and we feel sympathy and empathy for fellow humans suffering and would like to see that stop.
That is, and always has been, and always will be the answer to those who ask what difference it makes to atheists whether or not people believe in gods.
Could you stop asking this question now? Because it makes you look like you are not listening to anything we say.