15 Jun 23
@indonesia-phil saidIt is not a dodge it is not my fault you can’t stay on topic and try to make this about religious points of views. Personally I think you do that so you can avoid having to consider what you are talking about. It’s easier to talk about people instead of the topic and that sums you up.
Ah yes, the old 'take it to Spirituality' dodge, don't you think that one's wearing a bit thin? I'm sure everyone here can see what you're doing, and one could argue that this whole thread should be in Spirituality, but you brought it to us here, so here is where we are discussing it.
And of course, this is all about world view; if James Tour was an atheist he wou ...[text shortened]... d on unproven and unprovable mythology. I'm not accusing anyone of anything, I'm just stating facts.
You are not stating facts, leave God out and simply ask can a mindless process do what we see?
I don’t think you have that in you, you are more hung up on who says things instead of the context of the conversation.
15 Jun 23
@kellyjay saidIt's absolutely a dodge, as you well know. The topic is about 'who says things', since you have presented us with an 'expert' who is a Christian and also calls himself a scientist, not because you are interested in discussing natures' processes, but because here is someone who shares your religious beliefs. So, this is all about religious points of view; had James Tour not been a Christian, you would not have presented him to us, as you also well know. You created the context, nobody else, and it's a bit late now to leave god out, since you put him in here, which is the whole point of your thread.
It is not a dodge it is not my fault you can’t stay on topic and try to make this about religious points of views. Personally I think you do that so you can avoid having to consider what you are talking about. It’s easier to talk about people instead of the topic and that sums you up.
You are not stating facts, leave God out and simply ask can a mindless process do what ...[text shortened]... ave that in you, you are more hung up on who says things instead of the context of the conversation.
Of course you are backing away from all of that now, and attempting to change the subject, which is what you do when presented with difficult questions which you can't answer.
16 Jun 23
@indonesia-phil saidI am interested in the topic you with ideology. You can’t seem to talk about anything else, I asking you for a simple answer mindlessness or mind, what is it you see that says mindlessness is responsible? It takes a mind to put material together to do specific functions and as I add with error checking, how does mindlessness do that?
It's absolutely a dodge, as you well know. The topic is about 'who says things', since you have presented us with an 'expert' who is a Christian and also calls himself a scientist, not because you are interested in discussing natures' processes, but because here is someone who shares your religious beliefs. So, this is all about religious points of view; had James Tour ...[text shortened]... ge the subject, which is what you do when presented with difficult questions which you can't answer.
Yet religious beliefs not this concern you.
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16 Jun 23
@kellyjay saidWhat evidence do you have of an alternative theory of mindlessness?
I am interested in the topic you with ideology. You can’t seem to talk about anything else, I asking you for a simple answer mindlessness or mind, what is it you see that says mindlessness is responsible? It takes a mind to put material together to do specific functions and as I add with error checking, how does mindlessness do that?
Yet religious beliefs not this concern you.
16 Jun 23
3 edits
@divegeester saidI think we know already know that KJ does not believe that mindless processes can account for the origin of life.
What evidence do you have of an alternative theory of mindlessness?
So, if we were to swerve into mindful territory here, one could ask why a creator mind must necessarily be identical with the Abahamic one, rather than Brahma or Shiva or Ahura Mazda or some other (possibly unnamed and unworshipped) mind. If life here was 'seeded' by an alien race of beings which live in timeless and deathless dimensions, but are not gods, that would terminate the objections of those who think that mindless processes alone cannot lead to life from non-life on Earth. Purely hypothetical, of course; I merely point out that admitting that some mind must have been active at some point, still does not commit us to the Abrahamic God of the OT being the agent. I'd want to see some hard evidence; a wrecked UFO buried 1 billion yrs ago or something like that, with recoverable proto-bio-material on board.
16 Jun 23
@moonbus saidLife processes, you know the topic you claim to know more than a chemist, and refuse to talk about those things you claim are not in biology? Spiritual Forum for God, gods, and now I suppose space aliens.
I think we know already know that KJ does not believe that mindless processes can account for the origin of life.
So, if we were to swerve into mindful territory here, one could ask why a creator mind must necessarily be identical with the Abahamic one, rather than Brahma or Shiva or Ahura Mazda or some other (possibly unnamed and unworshipped) mind. If life here wa ...[text shortened]... d UFO buried 1 billion yrs ago or something like that, with recoverable proto-bio-material on board.
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16 Jun 23
@kellyjay saidDoes your “chemist” subscribe to a version of the creation of life which would be classified as by God or by space aliens?
Life processes, you know the topic you claim to know more than a chemist, and refuse to talk about those things you claim are not in biology? Spiritual Forum for God, gods, and now I suppose space aliens.
@kellyjay saidI defer to chemists who know better than yours.
Life processes, you know the topic you claim to know more than a chemist, and refuse to talk about those things you claim are not in biology? Spiritual Forum for God, gods, and now I suppose space aliens.
I do not believe that space aliens were involved. I merely point out that if you and Tour believe that a mind must have been involved in the origin of life on Earth, it does not follow that only the mind of the Abrahamic God could have done it; any mind would do, even a much lesser one.
17 Jun 23
@moonbus saidMotives don't matter, there would not be a motive for mindlessness, and that isn't the question! You are still avoiding it bringing this up, another shot of dragging this into a discussion best fit for the Spiritual forum, you cannot bring yourself to actually approach this question honestly.
I think we know already know that KJ does not believe that mindless processes can account for the origin of life.
So, if we were to swerve into mindful territory here, one could ask why a creator mind must necessarily be identical with the Abahamic one, rather than Brahma or Shiva or Ahura Mazda or some other (possibly unnamed and unworshipped) mind. If life here wa ...[text shortened]... d UFO buried 1 billion yrs ago or something like that, with recoverable proto-bio-material on board.
17 Jun 23
@moonbus saidCoward, produce a Chemist who speaks to these things that disagree with Tour, you are always taking cheap shots at people, not to the topic, and trying to twist this into a Spiritual forum conversation, again, what a pathetic dodge. You claim he is wrong and avoid producing evidence, you claim some chemists disagree on specific points, and yet, what are their names, where did they write or say anything you can point to?
I defer to chemists who know better than yours.
I do not believe that space aliens were involved. I merely point out that if you and Tour believe that a mind must have been involved in the origin of life on Earth, it does not follow that only the mind of the Abrahamic God could have done it; any mind would do, even a much lesser one.
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17 Jun 23
@kellyjay saidRabid rambling does not constitute a scientific argument. Get out. You're not even a scientist, let alone a Christian.
Coward, produce a Chemist who speaks to these things that disagree with Tour, you are always taking cheap shots at people, not to the topic, and trying to twist this into a Spiritual forum conversation, again, what a pathetic dodge. You claim he is wrong and avoid producing evidence, you claim some chemists disagree on specific points, and yet, what are their names, where did they write or say anything you can point to?
17 Jun 23
@KellyJay
What you want is for life in general to be so precious it overrides any other quality, which could have only come from the blessing of a god.
It will turn out I think, life is not precious, it is everywhere there are halfway decent conditions on whatever planet or asteroid comes around.
NASA scientists have now concluded life could be hiding out on the MOON.
In craters hidden from the sun, always very cold but with water.
Like Enceladus which is spitting water right out into space, just shown by the James Webb scope to be spewing water much higher into space than known before in the Hubble era. That just means if life is present in that water, bacteria maybe, it can be injected right into the space around it, some of them could waft its way to Mars or Earth or early Venus and got directly seeded from that little moon.
17 Jun 23
@shallow-blue saidSo, produce an argument, personal attacks are not an argument. What makes mindlessness the answer over a mind, do you have a scientific argument, or not?
Rabid rambling does not constitute a scientific argument. Get out. You're not even a scientist, let alone a Christian.
My being a Christian has nothing to do with that question, and your claiming what I am doesn't address the question it only again is something if you were to discuss it should be taken to the Spiritual forum not here. For a crowd that wants to keep the science away from the religious the only thing you offer here are religious arguments that should be taken someplace else.
17 Jun 23
@sonhouse saidTake it to the Spiritual forum sonhouse, the quality of life, and blessings of God are not the question, can mindlessness do the things it is being credited for, if yes, show the reasoning based on evidence that it is true.
@KellyJay
What you want is for life in general to be so precious it overrides any other quality, which could have only come from the blessing of a god.
It will turn out I think, life is not precious, it is everywhere there are halfway decent conditions on whatever planet or asteroid comes around.
NASA scientists have now concluded life could be hiding out on the MOON.
In ...[text shortened]... em could waft its way to Mars or Earth or early Venus and got directly seeded from that little moon.