Originally posted by galveston75==================================
Not understanding some point or issue in the Bible is completely ok. None of us know all the answers. But the serious mistake is putting your reliance on what these men say with regards to this paganistic belief and their excuses and made up reasonings as to why YOU should accept what they say is truth instead of the Bible. The truth is in all the script is trinity...you've been decieved and have been drawn away from the clear truths in the Bible.
Not understanding some point or issue in the Bible is completely ok. None of us know all the answers. But the serious mistake is putting your reliance on what these men say with regards to this paganistic belief
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Concerning the Triune God, your pagan origin theory is (trying hard to remain polite) ... um, ... in error.
This is your imagination - trace back the belief in the trinity to its "pagan origins". Not you or anyone has impressed me with this theory.
If you want to talk about pagan origin of Christmas, Easter, yul logs, easter bunnies, Mother and Child pictures, garb warn by some clerics, that is another story.
If you want to concoct a "pagan origin" of the Triune God, this is so much baloney.
You go corner some candy story sunday school kids and bully them around with that junk. it doesn't work on me. And as far as I saw Conrau also dismissed your conspiracy theory.
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and their excuses and made up reasonings as to why YOU should accept what they say is truth instead of the Bible. The truth is in all the scriptures of the Bible...Not what MEN come up with which this trinity doctrine wreaks with human theories and deceptions. And that's exactly what has happened to ones who believe this trinity...you've been decieved and have been drawn away from the clear truths in the Bible.
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You weren't around to show a similar outrage when Arius was busy thinking up how he could teach that the Logos was the first angel God created.
Debates, many of which have been distracting, do not prove that the belief in the Trinity is not justified.
That is your basic argument here. I reject it. Yes, many words, many arguments have occured over the Trinity. Illustrations have been offered, many imperfect. Explanations have covered one aspect but neglected another.
You won't be able to point to these in church history and say "See? Because of these problems and divisions it follows that there is no Trinity and Christ is the first angel that God created."
If I have written it once I have written it many timess. the Trinity is for man's experience and enjoyment. The Trinity is not that man may have a confusing doctrine, a theological creed.
The statements of the Bible prove that the thought of the Three-One God is justified. And I have included many quotations of men as able minded as anyone writing on this Forum over two millennia, that they too saw the Father God, the Son God incarnate, and the Spirit God imparted, dispensed to man.
And you can tell robbie that saying "Calvin was a bad guy" doesn't make Calvin wrong in his teaching of the Scriptural basis of the Trinity.
Originally posted by jaywillLol....Still avoiding the issues such as the holy spirit. Ok. I give up with you. It's sad that you have been so fooled by this Jay. I hope someday soon you'll wake up and read the Bible clearly and then be able to leave the deceptions behind.
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Not understanding some point or issue in the Bible is completely ok. None of us know all the answers. But the serious mistake is putting your reliance on what these men say with regards to this paganistic belief
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Concerning the Triune God, your pagan origin theor ...[text shortened]... y" doesn't make him wrong in his teaching of the Scriptural basis of the Trinity.[/b]
Originally posted by galveston75And I am evading nothing from you as a challenge. Stop posturing. I have written much about the Spirit in the past.
Lol....Still avoiding the issues such as the holy spirit. Ok. I give up with you. It's sad that you have been so fooled by this Jay. I hope someday soon you'll wake up and read the Bible clearly and then be able to leave the deceptions behind.
galveston75, to me you have lost the case a long, long, LONG time ago.
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And where is the Holy Spirit in all of this? First he gets no name and he hardly gets talked about very much. 95% of the forum is about Jesus the son and Jehovah the Father. So why does the Holy Spirit seem to be like a step child and put on the back burner.
Where was he during the creation of th earth and heavens? Was he not a "worker" like Jesus? Did he not have a share in that?
Why did Jesus not pray to him especially when he was about to be put to death? It seems like praying to the other two parts of 3 would have been better then just praying to the 1 part of God?
And as far as I know the holy spirit is never called God or A God at all. Even Satan is called a God in the Bible. So why is the Holy Spirit not given that title?
Why is the Holy Spirit not included in any conversations between Jesus and Jehovah in anything they discussed in prayers or together in Heaven?
Why is just Jesus mentioned as the one sitting beside the Fathers right hand?
Why do we not pray to Jehovah thru the Holy Spirit as we do thru Jesus?
Do you get the point? Do I need to continue with many more examples of why the Holy Spirit is not God or a God and is not a part of a trinity?
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If not for galveston's sake I will take up a response to these comments when I can.
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And where is the Holy Spirit in all of this?
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In the New Testament the Holy Spirit is the final stage of the Triune God reaching man. It is through the Holy Spirit as the Third of the Trinity that God is finally imparted INTO man to be man's inner eternal and divine life.
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First he gets no name and he hardly gets talked about very much.
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I don't know what this nonsense means. The Spirit is given many titles in the New Testament:
The Spirit of reality - or the Spirit of truth.
Another Comforter,
The Spirit of life
The Lord Spirit,
The Spirit of Christ
The Spirit of Jesus
The Spirit of Jesus Christ
The Spirit of the One who raised Christ from the dead
The Spirit of grace
A life giving Spirit
The Spirit of God
The Spirit of the Lord
This is to name a few titles for the Holy Spirit
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95% of the forum is about Jesus the son and Jehovah the Father. So why does the Holy Spirit seem to be like a step child and put on the back burner.
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The New Testament doesn't treat the Spirit as a step child. What people write on the Forum doesn't effect this.
But I seriously doubt that you read the New Testament so you would be unaware of this. You read Watchtower "commentaries" and articles, I fear.
I am not the first person who has gotten the impression from you that you really are not a Bible reader. You may be an expert on JW theology from thier manuals.
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Where was he during the creation of th earth and heavens?
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Read Genesis 1:1,2.
Notice Hebrews 9:14 says "the eternal Spirit".
I do not believe that your teachers trust or encourage their students to read the Bible for themselves.
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Was he not a "worker" like Jesus? Did he not have a share in that?
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Genesis 1:1,2. Read it. Read it again until it sinks in.
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Why did Jesus not pray to him especially when he was about to be put to death? It seems like praying to the other two parts of 3 would have been better then just praying to the 1 part of God?
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That is not a problem to me. God is Spirit Jesus said in John 4.
How could He NOT pray to God the Spirit ?
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And as far as I know the holy spirit is never called God
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Acts 5: 3,4- to lie to the Holy Spirit is to lie to God. Maybe you can ask Ananias and his wife Saphira about it one day. I think they got very clear.
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or A God at all. Even Satan is called a God in the Bible. So why is the Holy Spirit not given that title?
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I know of NO English translation of the Bible that capitalizes God when speaking of Satan. Yes, he is called the god of this age.
Either you are being deliberately deceptive or you simply don't read English translations of the Bible.
And pointing out that Satan is called the god of this age will not create for you another God besides Jehovah. Neither will it give you wiggle room to say John 1:1,2 talks about TWO Gods.
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Why is the Holy Spirit not included in any conversations between Jesus and Jehovah in anything they discussed in prayers or together in Heaven?
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The request of the Son to send the Spirit from the Father is covered in John 14 and 16.
Maybe you never read about it. Jesus tells us that He would ask the Father to give the disciples Another Comforter, the Spirit of truth.
That is a record of the Spirit being mentioned in a conversation between Father and Son.
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Why is just Jesus mentioned as the one sitting beside the Fathers right hand?
Why do we not pray to Jehovah thru the Holy Spirit as we do thru Jesus?
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In the New Testmanent the Spirit is the life giving Spirit. He is Christ in His pneumatic form. He finally reaches man through the life giving Spirit.
God is about dispensing His life into man. The Father is the Source. The Son is the manifestation of the Source. The Holy Spirit is the flow of this God into man.
The Spirit and the Bride speak together in Revelation. The Spirit and the Bride say come. The Spirit is the Bridegroom of the church that has been imparted INTO the church.
The Spirit is God finally reaching the inside of man to be dispensed into man. He is not the objective object outside of man for man to worship in a objective way. The Spirit is the Triune God imparted to be the life of the followers of Christ.
It is only as the Spirit that God can dwell in man.
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Do you get the point? Do I need to continue with many more examples of why the Holy Spirit is not God or a God and is not a part of a trinity?
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The eternal Spirit (Heb. 9:14) is God Himself.
The Lord is the Spirit in 2 Cor, 3:17.
Christ said "I am ... the life" and the Spirit gives life. The Spirit is the life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45).
Did galveston ever take the time to pray to ask God that he wanted to know the Spirit? Why not?
Because he doesn't want to know the Spirit. He's indoctrination is that Jesus is the first angel, not God. His indoctrination is that the Spirit is only a force or power.
Go learn what it means "You have not because you ask not.".
The "last Adam became a life giving Spirit." (1 Cor. 15:45) Christ is today the Holy Spirit. They are distinct but they are not separated.
Originally posted by jaywill#1..I said a name, not a title.
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And where is the Holy Spirit in all of this?
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In the New Testament the Holy Spirit is the final stage of the Triune God reaching man. It is through the Holy Spirit as the Third of the Trinity that God is finally imparted INTO man to be man's inner eternal and divine life.
hrist is today the Holy Spirit. They are distinct but they are not separated.
#2..No one addresses the Holy Spirit as they do the other two. Must be a differance.
#3..I've read the Bible from cover to cover many, many times.
#4..I get the impression from you that you diffenently follow the doctrines of men over the Bible.
#5..God's active force, the holy Spirit was being used to accomplish his will.
#6..I think if you look back at all of RC's and my postings in all the threads we've been involved in my friend, we quote more scriptures here then anyone and possible all others combined. So to make a comment like that is really being petty.
#7..If you've ever read any of our magazines you will see the amount of scriptures all throughout them.
#8..Go to BibleGateway and compair the different translation for "God of this System", and learn. 2 Cor 4:4.
#9..True followers do not pray to the Holy Spirit. You only pray to Jehovah as Jesus himself commanded. But you don't get that do you?
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Originally posted by galveston75#5..God's active force, the holy Spirit was being used to accomplish his will.
#1..I said a name, not a title.
#2..No one addresses the Holy Spirit as they do the other two. Must be a differance.
#3..I've read the Bible from cover to cover many, many times.
#4..I get the impression from you that you diffenently follow the doctrines of men over the Bible.
#5..God's active force, the holy Spirit was being used to accomplish his w ...[text shortened]... rit. You only pray to Jehovah as Jesus himself commanded. But you don't get that do you?
This is ironic. You effectively deny both the divinity and personhood of the Holy Spirit. I think that has absolutely no scriptural basis. We can the Holy Spirit's personhood in Jesus' own description:
Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convince the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment; of sin, because they do not believe in me; of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
John 16:7-15.
The Holy Spirit speaks and teaches the apostles:
Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness, where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works for forty years. Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their hearts; they have not known my ways.’"
Hebrews 3:7-10
The Holy Spirit is not just a spirit emanating from God but a person who gives the covenant:
And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds," then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their misdeeds no more."
Hebrews 10:15-17
As for the divinity of Christ, Christians need only look at John 1: And the word was God. Nothing could be clearer. It is an explicit affirmation that Jesus is God.
Originally posted by galveston75=====================================
#1..I said a name, not a title.
#2..No one addresses the Holy Spirit as they do the other two. Must be a differance.
#3..I've read the Bible from cover to cover many, many times.
#4..I get the impression from you that you diffenently follow the doctrines of men over the Bible.
#5..God's active force, the holy Spirit was being used to accomplish his w rit. You only pray to Jehovah as Jesus himself commanded. But you don't get that do you?
#1..I said a name, not a title.
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Firstly, I will not accept that there is a very large difference between title and name. This is largely a non-issue, that you said name and not title.
Since "the Lord is the Spirit" whatever name is the Lord's is also the Spirit's.
For example, I said that the Spirit was the final stage in which the Triune God reaches the inner being of man to dwell in him. Therefore we see this parallel:
1.) "The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit ..." (Rom. 8:16)
2.) "The Lord be with your spirit" (2 Tim 4:22)
1.) "And in this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He gave to us."(1 John 3:24)
2.) " .. do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you ...?" (2 Cor. 13:5)
The names the Spirit and Jesus Christ (or the Lord) are interchangeably applied in these two examples. These passages relate to those who actually have received Christ. It is doubtful that many Jehovah's Witnesses would understand them because they know nothing about God's desire to impart Himself into His people.
All they know is an objective God King outside of them, up there, far off, who is coming with kingdom. They learn nothing about the indwelling of the Triune God.
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#2..No one addresses the Holy Spirit as they do the other two. Must be a differance.
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Any addressing of the Lord Jesus Christ and any addressing of the Father is an addressing of the Holy Spirit.
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#3..I've read the Bible from cover to cover many, many times.
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Your New World Translation ?
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#4..I get the impression from you that you diffenently follow the doctrines of men over the Bible.
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You haven't demonstrated any validity to the charge, ever.
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#5..God's active force, the holy Spirit was being used to accomplish his will.
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Since there is no disagreement with this sentence I need not comment, except such a sentence does not mean there is no Trinity.
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#6..I think if you look back at all of RC's and my postings in all the threads we've been involved in my friend, we quote more scriptures here then anyone and possible all others combined.
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I doubt that. But if you wish, you may ask other objective third party witnesses. I would not be surprised if you found that I quote Scripture as much or more than most participants.
Regardless, the mere quoting is not the issue but whether their meaning is straightfowardly expounded or twisted.
You may have quoted your New World Translation of John 1:1,2 but I find your explanation horribly twisted. In fact you force it to say the exact opposite of what John intended it to say, I believe firmly.
You quote John 1:1, but you erroneously teach that it supports POLYTHEISM.
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So to make a comment like that is really being petty.
#7..If you've ever read any of our magazines you will see the amount of scriptures all throughout them.
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That may be so. But I don't think your Watchtower teachers would usually encourage people simply to read the Bible apart from Watchtower explanations.
If I were leading someone to Christ I would strongly encourage them to start reading, ie., the Gospel of John or Luke for themselves.
You see, I trust the Holy Spirit to reveal to them the truth. Ministry books are good and I use them myself. But I utterly trust that by reading the Bible a person can encounter the essential truth of the living Person of the Triune God.
It is not that important that they grasp creeds and church history information. It is firstly important that they touch the living Spirit of the Triune God.
The typical human religious concept is that God is far away and to be served and worshipped. The typical concept is that God is purely an objective King far away, sovereign, an object outside of man to be adored.
But there is a vital side which the natural mind neglects and is seen only by revelation. God wants to be assimilated as food, "digested" and eaten. God wants to disense His life and nature into the fabric of man's inner being - to mingle Himself with man.
The final stage in which God reaches man in this way is as the life giving Holy Spirit. But even with the Holy Spirit you have a religious concept of Him being outward, far off, with a name, who addresses Him?, placed on a pedestal as the great King.
Your concept is filled with objective religiosity. When I speak of God dispensing Himself into man it sounds foreign to you. God to you is up there, out there, on a pedestal, to be feared, to be worshipped.
I do not say that God is not to be worshipped or reverences. I do say you miss entirely the economy of God to dispense and impart His life into man. And to do this He is the Holy Spirit.
"In this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, that He has given to us of His Spirit" (1 John 4:13)
The natural religious mind does not understand Christ abiding in us and we abiding in Christ. In the case of Watchtower, you have a portion of the Bible that fits your natural concepts. The rest you either:
1.) Ignore
2.) Hammer it into your natural concept watering it down
3.) Fight against it
4.) Accuse believers in the pure word as followers of men's doctrines
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#8..Go to BibleGateway and compair the different translation for "God of this System", and learn. 2 Cor 4:4.
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#9..True followers do not pray to the Holy Spirit. You only pray to Jehovah as Jesus himself commanded. But you don't get that do you?
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We pray IN the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is Jesus finally reaching man to MINGLE with man.
Everything to you has to be outward and objective. You know nothing of God dispensing His life and nature into man to mingle with man.
Where is the passage teaching that it is heretical to pray to the Holy Spirit ?
I pray in the Holy Spirit. You never read?
On one hand the believers cry Abba Father (Romans 8:15).
On the other hand the crying Abba Father is the Spirit of His Son (Gal.4:6)
You need experience.
Originally posted by Conrau KI think that has absolutely no scriptural basis.
[b]#5..God's active force, the holy Spirit was being used to accomplish his will.
This is ironic. You effectively deny both the divinity and personhood of the Holy Spirit. I think that has absolutely no scriptural basis. We can the Holy Spirit's personhood in Jesus' own description:
Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I ...[text shortened]... was God[/i]. Nothing could be clearer. It is an explicit affirmation that Jesus is God.[/b]
Umm… It would from a Jewish point of view. Well, divinity, maybe—but distinguishable hypostasis (“personhood” ): not.
Also, Conrau, Greek Orthodox Christian writers tend to be pretty open about the historical development of a Trinitarian understanding, up thorough Nicea and Chalcedon—and I would think that Roman Catholics would be as well. I am always struck by a certain (generally unconscious) Christian hubris when it comes to assuming that the Hebrew Scriptures somehow point clearly toward a triune God—the unspoken assumption often seems to be that Jews are simply ignorant, stupid or perverse when it comes to their own Torah/Tanach.* Not only unspoken, but unexamined (and in that sense perhaps innocent). [I don’t accuse you of that—or anyone else here; I take your comments as being contextual with the Chrsitian scriptures.]
With that said, I understand both the midrashic efforts of early Christians to search out (d’rash) the Hebrew Scriptures in support of their messianic beliefs (Matthew is a good example), and reading the HS through the lens of the NT. I cannot criticize that.
As for the divinity of Christ, Christians need only look at John 1: And the word was God. Nothing could be clearer.
Actually, the JWs rely on a Coptic translation from the Greek (which seems to be at least as valid as the standard rendering) in which the grammatical construction of the Greek implies an indefinite article attached to theos. I wonder if that translation also reflects the Coptic monophysite understanding?
As a kind of side note: I have wondered what both Trinitarian and non-trinitarian Christians do with the line from Psalm 82:6 (artfully quoted by Jesus), “I say ye are gods (elohim)…”. I haven’t come across any Jewish commentary on that either, though I confess that I haven’t really looked. So, it’s just a question of interest…
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* I will just mention here that rabbinical Jewish hermeneutics are so paradigmatically different from Christian hermeneutics generally (and have been since sometime before the time of Christ), that they are difficult to compare.
Originally posted by Conrau KYou really, really have no idea what the holy spirit is do you?
[b]#5..God's active force, the holy Spirit was being used to accomplish his will.
This is ironic. You effectively deny both the divinity and personhood of the Holy Spirit. I think that has absolutely no scriptural basis. We can the Holy Spirit's personhood in Jesus' own description:
Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I ...[text shortened]... was God[/i]. Nothing could be clearer. It is an explicit affirmation that Jesus is God.[/b]
Originally posted by jaywillYou need the truth....
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#1..I said a name, not a title.
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Firstly, I will not accept that there is a very large difference between title and name. This is largely a non-issue, that you said name and not title.
Since "the Lord is the Spirit" whatever name is the Lord's i ...[text shortened]... is the Spirit of His Son (Gal.4:6)
You need experience.[/b]
Originally posted by vistesdits beautiful Vistesed, for clearly the ancient christians in Alexandria consciously made a distinction between God and the Word, as is clearly discernible form the Sahidic Coptic text, regardless of exegesis or grammatical interpretations. Many other biblical scholars have also recognised the difference, James Moffatt for example.
[b]I think that has absolutely no scriptural basis.
Umm… It would from a Jewish point of view. Well, divinity, maybe—but distinguishable hypostasis (“personhood” ): not.
Also, Conrau, Greek Orthodox Christian writers tend to be pretty open about the historical development of a Trinitarian understanding, up thorough Nicea and Chalcedon ...[text shortened]... ly (and have been since sometime before the time of Christ), that they are difficult to compare.[/b]
Originally posted by jaywillhttp://watchtower.org/e/bh/appendix_04.htm
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#1..I said a name, not a title.
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Firstly, I will not accept that there is a very large difference between title and name. This is largely a non-issue, that you said name and not title.
Since "the Lord is the Spirit" whatever name is the Lord's i ...[text shortened]... is the Spirit of His Son (Gal.4:6)
You need experience.[/b]
My finale say on this....
Originally posted by vistesd================================
[b]I think that has absolutely no scriptural basis.
Umm… It would from a Jewish point of view. Well, divinity, maybe—but distinguishable hypostasis (“personhood” ): not.
Also, Conrau, Greek Orthodox Christian writers tend to be pretty open about the historical development of a Trinitarian understanding, up thorough Nicea and Chalcedon ...[text shortened]... ly (and have been since sometime before the time of Christ), that they are difficult to compare.[/b]
Umm… It would from a Jewish point of view. Well, divinity, maybe—but distinguishable hypostasis (“personhood” ): not.
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What do you mean "Jewish point of view"? Do you mean the Old Testament Jewish prophets did not speak of a personhood of the Spirit of God ?
Some of the various titles assigned to the Spirit of God make it impossible to not assume personhood,
"the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of Jehovah" (Isaiah 11:2)
I don't see how you can proport a "Jewish" view of the non-personhood of the Spirit of God in this passage.
What about "the Spirit of the living creature " (Ezek. 1:20-21; 10:17)? Jewish "non-personhood"?
The Spirit of grace and of supplications (Zech 12:10)
My Spirit - (Gen. 6:3; Isa. 30:1; 42:1; 44:3; 59:21; Ezek 36:27; 37:14; 39:29; Jol 2:28; Hag. 2:5; Zech. 4:6; 6:8)
Your Spirit - (Neh. 9:30; Psa. 612:11; 104:30; 139:7)
I would not say that all these passages stress a Jewish view of the non-personhood of the Spirit of God.
Lee Roy Martin also points out that the Spirit of Jehovah or (Yahweh) speaks of the "personal presence of Yahweh".
His Spirit being with someone signifies that He Jehovah will be with them - as with Moses (Exo. 3:12), and the judges (Judg. 2:18) and Gideon (6:16)
Sometimes the actions of the Spirit are the actions of Jehovah God. For example, the Spirit of God entered into or came upon Ezekiel and said "thus says the Lord Jehovah," and Ezekiel addressed Him latter as Jehovah (Ezek 3:24-27; 11:5, 13)
The Spirit of God is therefore seen in the Old Testament not only as possession but as apposition - ie. the Spirit is God.