21 Jan 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI would think so, otherwise it would be a 7. Of course it would take an extra-ordinary piece of evidence to change our minds past the mid-point at 3.5, I would freely admit that. Just as it would take actually seeing a flying sleigh (while awake, sober, and not under the influence of mind-altering drugs) to move our scepticism over the existence of Santa to below 3.5.
"We don't say we are 7.0 simply because we are not 7.0. We are 6.99999999..., but not quite 7.0."
Penguin
.... predetermined to remain "6.99999999...," static or rationally open to the possibility of the dynamics of change?
--- Penguin.
- Joined
- 31 May 06
- Moves
- 1795
21 Jan 14
Originally posted by SuzianneNothing can be known with absolute certainty, as I have said many times.
My point is that he has stated exactly that, in this thread, many times. As a stipulation of the question, it was given that a 7 would mean you are "absolutely certain" that God doesn't exist. And yet, here we have a person, who has claimed, many times, that he is certain that God doesn't exist, and yet he does not say 7. He goes out of his way to practi ...[text shortened]... more 7s? If you're certain, surely you would give a 7, as stipulated in the original question.
excepting maybe knowledge of mathematics.
I don't claim to know anything about the universe with absolute certainty,
there is always a last infinitesimal amount of doubt that you can never
escape.
However most of the time such infinitesimal probabilities are so small that
we can just ignore them and treat them like they don't exist.
I live and think like the probability of gods existing IS zero.
However if the question is asked what my level of certainty is then my answer
must be that I am almost totally certain, but that a tiny infinitesimal amount
of uncertainty remains.
In short I answer 7-e as e tends to zero because I am more intellectually rigorous
and honest than you are.
21 Jan 14
As is typical in any dialogue wherein one position is so diametrically opposed to the other position, buzzwords and phrases become cliche to the point of not hearing what is meant even though both sides say them fervently.
Perhaps another way of viewing the rating system has the possibility of shedding some light and understanding on the topic.
Believers hear of a respected-within-the-ranks-of-the-enemy-camp atheist who has suddenly (and seemingly) hedged his bet on the topic and they in turn feel a twinge of hope for their position.
The atheist was so resolute, so steadfast--- coupled with his nearly blinding brilliance--- some believers would mitigate his attack on their beliefs by simply ignoring him for fear of seeing their seeds of doubt grow and choke their faith to death.
Hearing him move from 7.0 to 6.9 actually bolstered their own faith; they saw it as a sign of weakness.
Maybe if he lived long enough, they reasoned to themselves, they'd witness the gradual erosion of his disbelief from 6.9 down to 5.9, 4.9, 3.9... until he got to the point where they could welcome him into their forgiving communal arms as he traveled the world, billed as The Former Avowed Atheist Who Now Loves Jesus.
Pretty sure that's not what the 6.9 meant.
If I am reading it right, the folks who are placing their chips on the extreme end of disbelief are simply saying there might be a God out there somewhere, but we still wholly reject the idea that the God who might be out there is the one described in the Bible.
21 Jan 14
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI wouldn't even go that far.
As is typical in any dialogue wherein one position is so diametrically opposed to the other position, buzzwords and phrases become cliche to the point of not hearing what is meant even though both sides say them fervently.
Perhaps another way of viewing the rating system has the possibility of shedding some light and understanding on the topic.
Belie ...[text shortened]... ll wholly reject the idea that the God who might be out there is the one described in the Bible.
My position is that the chance of there being any god at all is infinitesimally small but not zero. The chance of the god described in the Bible existing is orders of magnitude smaller than that, but still not actually zero.
Penguin
- Joined
- 31 May 06
- Moves
- 1795
21 Jan 14
Originally posted by PenguinExactly.
I wouldn't even go that far.
My position is that the chance of there being any god at all is infinitesimally small but not zero. The chance of the god described in the Bible existing is orders of magnitude smaller than that, but still not actually zero.
Penguin
21 Jan 14
Originally posted by stellspalfieI have no "nagging doubt", I am "absolutely certain" that God exists. I am not a liar nor delusional. Whether you think so or not doesn't bother me in the slightest. Atheists think there is no God. Therefore, I'm not really inclined to believe anything else coming out of their mouths regarding God either.
[b]are you "absolutely certain" or not?
i think 6.9r answers your question. there is no absolute in the human mind, we all have a 'nagging doubt' its a survival thing. i am also 6.9r% sure that everybody who claims they are 100% sure their god exists is a liar or delusional.[/b]
21 Jan 14
Originally posted by FreakyKBHOr maybe they're just weak and cannot be honest about what they feel and think.
As is typical in any dialogue wherein one position is so diametrically opposed to the other position, buzzwords and phrases become cliche to the point of not hearing what is meant even though both sides say them fervently.
Perhaps another way of viewing the rating system has the possibility of shedding some light and understanding on the topic.
Belie ...[text shortened]... ll wholly reject the idea that the God who might be out there is the one described in the Bible.
Only God knows why. 😛
21 Jan 14
Originally posted by FreakyKBH"19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."
As is typical in any dialogue wherein one position is so diametrically opposed to the other position, buzzwords and phrases become cliche to the point of not hearing what is meant even though both sides say them fervently.
Perhaps another way of viewing the rating system has the possibility of shedding some light and understanding on the topic.
Belie ...[text shortened]... ll wholly reject the idea that the God who might be out there is the one described in the Bible.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord !" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."
26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands ; and reach here your hand and put it into My side ; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God !" 29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed ? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book ; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God ; and that believing you may have life in His name." John 20:19-31 New American Standard
Comment: Interesting how that Jesus didn't criticize Thomas for his doubt; rather, He invited Thomas to touch his wounds and see for himself. Wonder where Thomas would have indexed himself on Richard Dawkins "scale of 1 to 7, 1 being absolute certain there is a god and 7 being absolutely certain there isn't..." prior to John 20:27. (Thanks for weighing in)
21 Jan 14
Originally posted by googlefudgeIt is just a dishonest game she is trying to play, and either way she will criticize atheists. If we say 7, she will accuse us of believing on faith, and if we say anything below 7, she will accuse us either of having doubts or being dishonest.
We take you at your word about what you believe.
Why are you incapable of doing us the same courtesy?
Anyone who says that they expect an answer of 7 on an issue like this, where a negative cannot be proven, is either being dishonest or is incredibly ignorant of logic.
Originally posted by Penguin(Let me preface this by saying this post is not only aimed at the Penguin, here, but all atheists in this thread who subscribe to this viewpoint.)
I wouldn't even go that far.
My position is that the chance of there being any god at all is infinitesimally small but not zero. The chance of the god described in the Bible existing is orders of magnitude smaller than that, but still not actually zero.
Penguin
Oh, come ON. Let's get down to it, then, shall we?
If this is the "mainstream" thought for atheists on this subject, then I do not want to hear another word about how "absolutely certain" "beyond a shadow of a doubt" "beyond all convincing otherwise" you people are that there is no God. I do not want to hear any more about how you people think theists are somehow "intellectually dishonest" or even "liars". SOME of you have gone so far in the past to say that you can PROVE God doesn't exist.
I'm sorry, but I'm gonna call it as I see it. This "miniscule possibility" crap doesn't cut it. I've sat here and listened to you guys talk and talk and talk about how "absolutely certain" you are that God doesn't exist, even to the point of claiming you can PROVE it, and that theists are somehow weak and illogical for believing in God, and then when you have the chance to definitively quantify your certainty, you waffle. There's something else at work here and just when I think maybe I'll get to the bottom of it, it slips away under yet another pile of excuses.
So pardon ME if I laugh in your faces next time I hear how "absolutely certain" you are that God doesn't exist. Because obviously, you aren't.
Let me clarify here for a moment. The question was how certain are you, not what is the probability. If the question was what is the probability that there is no god, on a scale of 1 to 7, then I could see having a lot of 6.9s. The question actually was, on a scale of 1 to 7, with 1 being absolutely certain there is a god, and with 7 being absolutely certain there is not a god, where are you on the scale? It's asking about your personal certainty, NOT the probability. And we see few 7s, even though these exact same people have bragged for literally years how "absolutely certain" they are that God does not exist.
It seems like a case of "put up or shut up", to borrow a phrase from robbie, and yet most of you can do neither.
(I must here and now give kudos and bravo! to those who DID answer the question with a solid 7. At least you are being true to yourselves, and not trying to hide behind an excuse.)
21 Jan 14
Originally posted by googlefudgeSimple. Because you're not even capable of being honest about your "certainty" even when directly asked about it. You weren't being asked about the probabilities, you were asked how certain are you. We've heard it time and again how solidly you are "absolutely certain" there is no god, and then when you're asked directly to quantify it, you waffle.
We take you at your word about what you believe.
Why are you incapable of doing us the same courtesy?
But I repeat myself.