Is the Bible trustworthy

@whodey said
Again, Paul is corroborated, just like Jesus, by other witnesses.

Paul's 'vision' is "corroborated"? Says who?

@fmf said
If the bit about him being crucified is true, then it was not for blasphemy, not if the bit about the Romans executing him is true. The Romans executed countless thousands of people for sedition. The 'fulfilling of prophesy' thing doesn't hold any water with me.

Ok, so the early Christians picked a random man who was crucified on a cross to be the Messiah to fit all the prophesies, and then suffer endless persecution for it.

Understood.

@fmf said
Paul's 'vision' is "corroborated"? Says who?

Acts was not written by Paul.

So for the record, someone made up the story of Paul, someone who persecuted Christians but had a dramatic turn around on the road to Damascus who later became the author of most of the NT.

So both Jesus and Paul were contrived? I'm thinking you at least believe Paul preached the gospel because someone had to have written it.

@whodey said
Ok, so the early Christians picked a random man who was crucified on a cross to be the Messiah to fit all the prophesies, and then suffer endless persecution for it.

So it would seem. The human condition, religious zealotry especially, is a fascinating phenomenon. I am sure every Christian who suffered was sincere in their beliefs. But their sincerity about events that took place decades or even centuries before they were born, is not really strong evidence of anything except their state of mind.

@whodey said
Who is a witness to Mohammad?

My point exactly. Ditto for Paul's supernatural "vision". Ditto for the writer/writers of Revelation's supernatural "vision".

@whodey said
So for the record, someone made up the story of Paul, someone who persecuted Christians but had a dramatic turn around on the road to Damascus who later became the author of most of the NT.

I suggest you read Creating Christ by James S. Valliant and C. W. Fahy, an interesting scholarly work.

@whodey said
We learn about Paul in Acts written by the author of the gospel of Luke

Do you really think the "author of the gospel of Luke" was on the road to Damascus with Paul?

@fmf said
So it would seem. The human condition, religious zealotry especially, is a fascinating phenomenon. I am sure every Christian who suffered was sincere in their beliefs. But their sincerity about events that took place decades or even centuries before they were born, is not really strong evidence of anything except their state of mind.

So any evidence of the 12 disciples all being martyred, except 1 because the attempt to kill him failed, is not evidence that they really believed what they purported to believe?

In fact, Paul suffered the same fate.

Why? What motivation?

@fmf said
Do you really think the "author of the gospel of Luke" was on the road to Damascus with Paul?

There are but 3 possibilities

1. He was a witness
2. He heard it from someone who was a witness
3. He made the whole thing up to promote Paul.

Which do you adhere to?

@whodey said
I'm thinking you at least believe Paul preached the gospel because someone had to have written it.

Well, actually, the four NT gospels were written after the time of Paul. Not only that, but some of what Paul preached seemed different to what is in the gospels as we now know them. Paul alludes to others who were teaching different things than him. The creation of the new religion was in flux.

@fmf said
My point exactly. Ditto for Paul's supernatural "vision". Ditto for the writer/writers of Revelation's supernatural "vision".

If you compare Revelation to Daniel, you will find something interesting. They both seem to be saying many of the same things regarding such things as "the Beast".

So Daniel is not what many claim it to be, which is a book that has no relation to the Bible in any way. How you accept or reject it is up to you.

@fmf said
Well, actually, the four NT gospels were written after the time of Paul. Not only that, but some of what Paul preached seemed different to what is in the gospels as we now know them. Paul alludes to others who were teaching different things than him. The creation of the new religion was in flux.

Do you believe Paul was martyred for his faith?

@whodey said
There are but 3 possibilities

1. He was a witness
2. He heard it from someone who was a witness
3. He made the whole thing up to promote Paul.

Which do you adhere to?

It was inserted into the NT along with 22 books written by a man whose only connection to "Jesus Christ" was an uncorroborated "vision" 20 years after "Jesus Christ" had been executed.

@fmf said
It was inserted into the NT along with 22 books written by a man whose only connection to "Jesus Christ" was an uncorroborated "vision" 20 years after "Jesus Christ" had been executed.

As I have pointed out, many scholars seem to think that the author of Luke was the same person who wrote Acts.

@whodey said
Do you believe Paul was martyred for his faith?

I have no idea whether it's true. Who wrote about him? Did the Romans turn on their own operative? It's possible. What do you think he was executed for exactly?