16 Nov 09
edit: "The Free Dictionairy:
Evaluate, tr.v. evaluated, evaluating, evaluates
1. To ascertain or fix the value or worth of.
2. To examine and judge carefully; appraise. See Synonyms at estimate.
3. Mathematics To calculate the numerical value of; express numerically.
Once again we see that non-sentient objects such as computers are capable of evaluations."
These definitions are accurate, but your deduction "Once again we see that non-sentient objects such as computers are capable of evaluations" is false.
Regarding definition 1, I am sure it is impossible to ascertain or fix mindlessly the value (or worth of) whatever. The sentient beings are proceeding using their intelligence, and the computers are man-made devices that they act as a substitude of our intelligence and according to our criteria (programming).
Definition 2 is exactly my thesis (solely a sentient being is able to examine and to judge; the computers "examine and judge" because they are a substitude of our intelligence and they proceed according to their programs.
Regarding definition 3, since Mathematics are a human invention/ language we are unable to calculate accurately if we do not "speak" this language accurately. The devices known as computers are AI that are programmed to act according to their programs, therefore their computational ability exists solely because we have the machines programmed
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16 Nov 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadI can only conclude you don't understand what 'dead metaphor' means.
I won't go into the etymology of the words, but in my usage, the meaning was the same as common English usage of the words and therefore as used they are [b]not metaphors. A test of strength is a test it is not a metaphor for a test.[/b]
The relevance goes to the nature of speech; I'm not interested in discussing it further, so if you think you're right, that's fine.
17 Nov 09
Originally posted by Bosse de NageYou suggested I look it up and I did. It was quite clear from the explanation I found that the word 'test' as I used it was neither a metaphor nor a dead metaphor. If I say your strength is tested, then there is a test taking place, it is not metaphorical at all. I realize that neither you nor black beetle can picture anything other than humans (or plants and beetles in black beetles case) giving tests but I am not convinced that there is anything in the word that makes such a restriction.
I can only conclude you don't understand what 'dead metaphor' means.
The relevance goes to the nature of speech; I'm not interested in discussing it further, so if you think you're right, that's fine.
17 Nov 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadOK, you have a problem with basic English. Unless you seriously think that any of the definitions of 'test' seriously correspond to the mere presence of the desert, which is the 'test' that the cars are 'subjected' to. Or maybe you were thinking of the desert as a cupel. Yes, that's probably the case. Good grief.
You suggested I look it up and I did. It was quite clear from the explanation I found that the word 'test' as I used it was neither a metaphor nor a dead metaphor. If I say your strength is tested, then there is a test taking place, it is not metaphorical at all. I realize that neither you nor black beetle can picture anything other than humans (or plants ...[text shortened]... tests but I am not convinced that there is anything in the word that makes such a restriction.
n.
1. A procedure for critical evaluation; a means of determining the presence, quality, or truth of something; a trial: a test of one's eyesight; subjecting a hypothesis to a test; a test of an athlete's endurance.
2. A series of questions, problems, or physical responses designed to determine knowledge, intelligence, or ability.
3. A basis for evaluation or judgment: "A test of democratic government is how Congress and the president work together" (Haynes Johnson).
4. Chemistry.
1. A physical or chemical change by which a substance may be detected or its properties ascertained.
2. A reagent used to cause or promote such a change.
3. A positive result obtained.
5. A cupel.
17 Nov 09
Originally posted by Bosse de NageWhat has the 'mere presence of the desert' got to do with anything? The question was whether or not 'test' in the phrase 'a test of strength' is a 'dead metaphor'.
OK, you have a problem with basic English. Unless you seriously think that any of the definitions of 'test' seriously correspond to the mere presence of the desert, which is the 'test' that the cars are 'subjected' to. Or maybe you were thinking of the desert as a cupel. Yes, that's probably the case. Good grief.
Surely since the phrase matches definition 1. to a T (now thats a metaphor I believe), it cannot be a 'dead metaphor'.
1. A procedure for critical evaluation; a means of determining the presence, quality, or truth of something;a trial: a test of one's eyesight; subjecting a hypothesis to a test; a test of an athlete's endurance.
So in the above definition who is testing the athlete? Using what criteria? Is human intellect really required?
17 Nov 09
2 edits
Originally posted by twhiteheadReferring to the example of cars being put to the test by the desert. Simple question: in the sentence 'the desert conditions tested the drivers' endurance to the ultimate' is the 'test' literal or metaphorical?
What has the 'mere presence of the desert' got to do with anything?
Your examples from the definition are not useful since they are phrases devoid of context. A test of an athlete's endurance could be a real test by a sports scientist or a figurative test, such as a gruelling marathon, an interminable conversation with a lunatic, a lengthy interrogation by the athlete's political commissar, who knows.
'The cars were tested by the potholes'. Do we literally believe that the potholes were carrying out a test on the cars? No, a pothole is incapable of carrying out a test. Do we understand the sentence nonetheless? Yes, because metaphor is used in language all the time, to the extent that we sometimes don't even notice it.
I don't understand why you're disputing this obvious fact as though there were something at stake in admitting it. But perhaps there is, in which case I'd be obliged if you'd explain what it is.
17 Nov 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadWe are testing the athletes according to our criteria. The human intellect is really required.
What has the 'mere presence of the desert' got to do with anything? The question was whether or not 'test' in the phrase 'a test of strength' is a 'dead metaphor'.
Surely since the phrase matches definition 1. to a T (now thats a metaphor I believe), it cannot be a 'dead metaphor'.
1. A procedure for critical evaluation; a means of determining the p ...[text shortened]... who is testing the athlete? Using what criteria? Is human intellect really required?
We are manufacturing racing cars and we use them for sports and competition, and we race in the desert and in circuits. The circuits are a man-made testing/ proving ground, however they do not perform the testing of the racing cars and of the racers just the way a paper with specific questions written on it does not perform itself the questioning (somebody simply wrote down the questions because he had in mind specific purposes, and in analogy somebody simply constructed the circuit because he had in mind specific purposes).
The desert does not test the cars and the racers either -it is merely used as a circuit, thus as a testing/ proving ground by us. The desert does not give a fig for nothing, just the way a chessboard and a given position do not give a fig for our variations.
The given environment (desert/ chessboard-position) is evaluated by us (this is not a mindless process) according to our purposes (we want to cross the desert/ we want to rise above/ solve/ overcome the problem of the position). And solely afterwards we are probably able to construct cars according to our evaluation (cars solid enough to enable us to cross the desert with them)/ and solely afterwards we are probably able to play the right variation in order to overcome the problems of the position.
And our cars are probably getting better thanks to our calculations and our trial and error procedures alone (because it is very hard to calculate from the beginning all the necessary parameters for the crossing), whilst we become probably better players thanks to our personal struggle alone and not because we were “selected” by a sum of positions during our training.
And our evaluation (which is not a mindless procedure) has an aim: our cars must be able to cross the desert/ our variations must be accurate, and therefore both of them they must have specific qualitative elements -these are the criteria and they are all man-made.
So “the few selected cars” that they will “survive the desert” are not actually selected by the desert; and “the one selected chess player” that “s/he will play against World Champion” is not actually selected by the Immortal Game; the word “selected” over here means merely “extraordinary”
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17 Nov 09
Originally posted by Bosse de NageI believe it is literal. Maybe I misunderstood you earlier - when you simply replied 'dead metaphors' to my post about 'a test of strength' did you mean 'test' is a dead metaphor on 'a test of strength' or did you mean it was only a dead metaphor in my previous post about cars?
Referring to the example of cars being put to the test by the desert. Simple question: in the sentence 'the desert conditions tested the drivers' endurance to the ultimate' is the 'test' literal or metaphorical?
Your examples from the definition are not useful since they are phrases devoid of context.
Which clearly backs me up as it shows that context does not make the word. You and black beetle are trying hard to invent contexts and tie them to the word even when no such context is implied by the word.
A test of an athlete's endurance could be a real test by a sports scientist or a figurative test, such as a gruelling marathon, an interminable conversation with a lunatic, a lengthy interrogation by the athlete's political commissar, who knows.
There is nothing figurative about a grueling marathon. Try it some time. It is a very real literal test of endurance.
'The cars were tested by the potholes'. Do we literally believe that the potholes were carrying out a test on the cars? No, a pothole is incapable of carrying out a test.
Only because you have imbued the word 'test' with meaning beyond what it has. Even the dictionary goes against you. The dictionary says nothing about intelligence being required to carry out tests, instead it gives specific examples in which no intelligence is required.
Do we understand the sentence nonetheless? Yes, because metaphor is used in language all the time, to the extent that we sometimes don't even notice it.
Once again, if it was metaphor, then why is it in the dictionary as a standard meaning?
I don't understand why you're disputing this obvious fact as though there were something at stake in admitting it. But perhaps there is, in which case I'd be obliged if you'd explain what it is.
And I am wondering why you and black beetle are so desperate to show that natural selection is metaphorical. I am being totally honest here, I see nothing out of the ordinary when it comes to the usage of 'selection' in 'natural selection' nor the usage of 'test' when it comes to 'a test of strength' even when the object whose strength is being tested is inanimate and so is the tester eg "it was a test of the walls strength when the floods came." I am not convince that that usage is metaphorical in any way. Of course if we dig into the etymology of the word it appears it comes from the practice of determining the purity of metals, so I guess one could almost say that any other usage is in fact a 'dead metaphor' but then aren't most words if you go back far enough?
17 Nov 09
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadThere's nothing out of the ordinary about metaphor and no reason why metaphorical usage shouldn't be in the dictionary.
And I am wondering why you and black beetle are so desperate to show that natural selection is metaphorical. I am being totally honest here, I see nothing out of the ordinary when it comes to the usage of 'selection' in 'natural selection' nor the usage of 'test' when it comes to 'a test of strength' even when the object whose strength is being tested i when the floods came." I am not convince that that usage is metaphorical in any way.
I'm not desperate to convince you of anything. Darwin saw the same problem, where you see none:
'In the first four editions of On the Origin of Species, Darwin used the phrase "natural selection".[8] Darwin wrote on page 6 of The Variation of Animals and Plants under Domestication published in 1868, "This preservation, during the battle for life, of varieties which possess any advantage in structure, constitution, or instinct, I have called Natural Selection; and Mr. Herbert Spencer has well expressed the same idea by the Survival of the Fittest. The term "natural selection" is in some respects a bad one, as it seems to imply conscious choice; but this will be disregarded after a little familiarity". Darwin agreed with Alfred Russel Wallace that this new phrase - "survival of the fittest" - avoided the troublesome anthropomorphism of "selecting", though it "lost the analogy between nature's selection and the fanciers'".
'The fanciers' refers to animal fanciers who use selective breeding to preserve desired traits. Darwin somewhat oxymoronically renamed selective breeding 'artificial selection' to underscore the difference between them.
17 Nov 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadNo, I'm using the word in the ordinary sense, 'a procedure for critical examination' (etc) as referenced above. Note the key word 'critical'.
'The cars were tested by the potholes'. Do we literally believe that the potholes were carrying out a test on the cars? No, a pothole is incapable of carrying out a test.
Only because you have imbued the word 'test' with meaning beyond what it has. Even the dictionary goes against you. The dictionary says nothing about intelligence being required to carry out tests, instead it gives specific examples in which no intelligence is required.
I'd like you to elaborate on these 'specific examples' -- I don't see them.
17 Nov 09
Originally posted by Bosse de NageIt seems Darwin and I are on par. Notice how he does not at any point say he is using it as an analogy. Notice how he says "it seems to imply" ie it does not in-fact do so.
, as it seems to imply conscious choice; but this will be disregarded after a little familiarity
"lost the analogy between nature's selection and the fanciers'"
Notice how there is no doubt in this phrase that nature does in fact perform a selection.
17 Nov 09
Originally posted by Bosse de NageI highlighted them in bold! How can you not see them?
No, I'm using the word in the ordinary sense, 'a procedure for critical examination' (etc) as referenced above. Note the key word 'critical'.
I'd like you to elaborate on these 'specific examples' -- I don't see them.
trial: a test of one's eyesight; a test of an athlete's endurance.
You seem to be having trouble reading the dictionary. Entry 1. is not 'a procedure for critical examination'. but rather the full line that you posted earlier with alternative usages separated by semicolons. You carefully took the worst fit, then pretended that the others must be analogies!
The dictionary unequivocally states that "a test of an athlete's endurance" is standard English usage of the word 'test'.
17 Nov 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou deny that it is an analogy and then quote Darwin on the analogy. Priceless.
It seems Darwin and I are on par. Notice how he does not at any point say he is using it as an analogy. Notice how he says "it seems to imply" ie it does not in-fact do so.
[b]"lost the analogy between nature's selection and the fanciers'"
Notice how there is no doubt in this phrase that nature does in fact perform a selection.[/b]
Of course it's an analogy. Darwin says that nature preserves traits in the same way that selective breeders preserve traits. Blindingly obvious. Incredible that you can't see it. You must feel there's something at stake for you to admit it.
Gorblimey, the Cambridge Companion to the Origin of Species has a chapter entitled 'Darwin’s Analogy between Artificial and Natural Selection in the Origin of Species'
(see: http://cco.cambridge.org/extract?id=ccol9780521870795_CCOL9780521870795A004 ).
Could it be that it really is an analogy?
17 Nov 09
4 edits
Originally posted by twhiteheadI 'carefully' took the first one as the most general, which it is. Unless you're implying that 'a test of an athlete's endurance' yields the full sense of 'test'. You can look up the definition of 'trial' yourself, it's just a synonym for 'test'.
I highlighted them in bold! How can you not see them?
[b]trial: a test of one's eyesight; a test of an athlete's endurance.
You seem to be having trouble reading the dictionary. Entry 1. is not 'a procedure for critical examination'. but rather the full line that you posted earlier with alternative usages separated by semicolons. You carefully took ...[text shortened]... s that "a test of an athlete's endurance" is standard English usage of the word 'test'.[/b]
Here's the Princeton definition: the definitions for the verb are particularly revealing:
Noun
S: (n) trial, trial run, test, tryout (trying something to find out about it) "a sample for ten days free trial"; "a trial of progesterone failed to relieve the pain"
S: (n) test, mental test, mental testing, psychometric test (any standardized procedure for measuring sensitivity or memory or intelligence or aptitude or personality etc) "the test was standardized on a large sample of students"
S: (n) examination, exam, test (a set of questions or exercises evaluating skill or knowledge) "when the test was stolen the professor had to make a new set of questions"
S: (n) test, trial (the act of undergoing testing) "he survived the great test of battle"; "candidates must compete in a trial of skill"
S: (n) test, trial, run (the act of testing something) "in the experimental trials the amount of carbon was measured separately"; "he called each flip of the coin a new trial"
S: (n) test (a hard outer covering as of some amoebas and sea urchins)
Verb
S: (v) test, prove, try, try out, examine, essay (put to the test, as for its quality, or give experimental use to) "This approach has been tried with good results"; "Test this recipe"
S: (v) screen, test (test or examine for the presence of disease or infection) "screen the blood for the HIV virus"
S: (v) quiz, test (examine someone's knowledge of something) "The teacher tests us every week"; "We got quizzed on French irregular verbs"
S: (v) test (show a certain characteristic when tested) "He tested positive for HIV"
S: (v) test (achieve a certain score or rating on a test) "She tested high on the LSAT and was admitted to all the good law schools"
S: (v) test (determine the presence or properties of (a substance))
S: (v) test (undergo a test) "She doesn't test well"
But you still seem to assume, incorrectly, that the metaphorical and standard meanings of a word necessarily disagree, or that figurative speech is somehow banned from the dictionary. Whatever gave you that impression?
18 Nov 09
Originally posted by Bosse de NageThat there is an analogy does not make one an analogy and the other not. Darwins wording makes it quite clear that nature does select, not that natures action is merely an analogy of selection.
You deny that it is an analogy and then quote Darwin on the analogy. Priceless.
Of course it's an analogy. Darwin says that nature preserves traits in the same way that selective breeders preserve traits. Blindingly obvious. Incredible that you can't see it. You must feel there's something at stake for you to admit it.
Gorblimey, the Cambridge C ...[text shortened]... ?id=ccol9780521870795_CCOL9780521870795A004 ).
Could it be that it really is an analogy?
Next you will be telling me that "nature preserves traits" is also analogy and that 'preserves' also requires intelligent input.
Do you see that 'nature preserves traits' is an analogy to 'breeders preserve traits' yet neither is superior and nature most definitely does preserve trait. Same with selection.