Originally posted by KellyJayWe already have examples of that, people died by having their hearts pulled out while alive by the originals in South America, where we have found piles of skulls from ritual deaths and I can guarantee you the archaeologists were aghast at the torture inherent in those murders. That WAS 2000 years later and THEY cared. I don't see how you can be so cavalier about deaths, especially by torture. God or no god. So you figure it only means something if there is a god. So where was your god when those 200 million were tortured to death in the past 100 odd years? Apparently it wasn't a big deal to your god either so it stands to reason it wouldn't be a big deal to you either. Of course it MIGHT be a different deal if YOU were the one being tortured.
In 2000 years from now no one would know or care now would they?
Originally posted by sonhouseGive us some names, tell us their life stories. Where they good or bad, are their lives
We already have examples of that, people died by having their hearts pulled out while alive by the originals in South America, where we have found piles of skulls from ritual deaths and I can guarantee you the archaeologists were aghast at the torture inherent in those murders. That WAS 2000 years later and THEY cared. I don't see how you can be so cavalier ...[text shortened]... g deal to you either. Of course it MIGHT be a different deal if YOU were the one being tortured.
meaningful now? They are gone forever for all you know, nothing about how any of them
lived or died carries any meaning now outside of the few people who live today and think
about them. Once those who dwell on the past die off then what, nothing?
The only way any life matters is if it goes on, if it doesn't than nothing is waiting and
that is all there is for the so called good and bad.
If God is real and there is more to this life than living and dying, it is better to find that out
now than when all your choices are gone.
Originally posted by KellyJayHave you told all your family, friends, neighbours, and workmates that they only have "meaning" to you as long as you go around telling yourself that you are immortal?
The only way any life matters is if it goes on, if it doesn't than [b]nothing is waiting and that is all there is for the so called good and bad.[/b]
Originally posted by KellyJay to sonhouseWhat "choices" do you think sonhouse has? Do you sincerely contend that he can somehow make a choice to believe things he simply does not find believable?
If God is real and there is more to this life than living and dying, it is better to find that out now than when all your choices are gone.
Originally posted by KellyJayWhat a sad life you must lead. I am guessing that your marriage does not matter to you because it won't exist after death. Your job doesn't matter because you will retire one day, and you don't like food because it doesn't last more than a few hours. And since you believe many of us will not go to heaven, we don't matter to you and you have no empathy for us whatsoever.
The only way any life matters is if it goes on,
Originally posted by twhiteheadBesides that rant against meaning if there is no god, he ignores my response to the actual op, difficulty with Noah's flood instead trying to deflect with side issues. What do they call that? Oh yes, Strawman arguement.
What a sad life you must lead. I am guessing that your marriage does not matter to you because it won't exist after death. Your job doesn't matter because you will retire one day, and you don't like food because it doesn't last more than a few hours. And since you believe many of us will not go to heaven, we don't matter to you and you have no empathy for us whatsoever.
Originally posted by sonhouseConversations are two way not everything you talk about I feel the need to discuss and
Besides that rant against meaning if there is no god, he ignores my response to the actual op, difficulty with Noah's flood instead trying to deflect with side issues. What do they call that? Oh yes, Strawman arguement.
some parts of your Op I do. I will answer anything you bring up here now, if you'd address
the points I've been making. If you want to continue to say some lives are taken due to
some evil that has to do with God not stopping I suggest you show me what those deaths
look like without God. This isn't a strawman argument it goes to the heart of your all of
your complaints. I'd also ask you why all death isn't bothering you while some do?
Originally posted by KellyJayI can't grieve over every death that happens since it happens to 100% of every live form on Earth. I can get extremely upset over deaths from torture and if you are not upset over that then you need some empathy training.
Conversations are two way not everything you talk about I feel the need to discuss and
some parts of your Op I do. I will answer anything you bring up here now, if you'd address
the points I've been making. If you want to continue to say some lives are taken due to
some evil that has to do with God not stopping I suggest you show me what those deaths
lo ...[text shortened]... your all of
your complaints. I'd also ask you why all death isn't bothering you while some do?
You can't just say, if there is a god, THEN those deaths are terrible, which seems to be your mantra.
Those deaths were terrible, god or no god and if you can't see that then you have no hope.
So you swallow the Noah fantasy hook line and sinker. A god, so powerful it can create entire universes would stoop to destroying all land life to get back at some thousands of bad humans. Then feel sorry for what it did and tells Noah to make an ark, getting animals by single mating pairs, thus ensuring the loss of genetic diversity.
But there IS genetic diversity so the whole tale is just that, fantasy, to be taken as allegory not real.
Rain that goes up 20,000 feet or so in 40 days is 500 feet of rain a day or 24 inches an hour or 1/3rd of an inch per minute. Then you have to deal with the idea that the water would never recede to it's earlier levels, it would take thousands of years for that amount of water to sink but it wouldn't EVER. The land mass would be 1/100th of what it is now. Rock is not porous enough for that much water to just go underground. We already know about places like the midwest where the Ogalala water shed is, which came from the last ice age draining off after it melted, there was major flooding in Canada with temporary lakes there making the great lakes look like ponds but drain it did, but it took 10,000 years, going all the way into the midwest of the US. There would have been no dust bowl era if only they had known there was billions of gallons of water right beneath their feet, in the 1930's and such.
But that is (now) known water from known resources. The flood would have taken much longer to drain if it ever would fully. You add 5 miles of water to Earth and you can forget land masses for a million years.
The whole tale reeks of man writing boogie man tales which now because of religious brainwashing, is taken as 100% real and no other explanation possible for those people and presumably for you.
A god so pisssed at some humans, it wipes out all land life on Earth. Why don't you ponder that for a while. If true, do you really want to worship a god that cruel?
Exactly what did Elephants do to deserve such a fate? Do you think it was to spite that human tribe who would have died never even knowing all land life was already dead too?
How can you even BEGIN to believe such utter nonsense?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by Great King RatBut you understand how pitifully small this event is compared to a world wide flood, right?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The video is awesome. But having the fountains of the deep burst forth from under the earth must have been even more fearful.
God had told early man to multiply and replenish or fill the earth.
"And God blessed them, and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it ..." (Gen. 1:28a)
Due to their rebellion because of having been deceived by the Devil, I think they sorely disobeyed to spread out. This would mean that they were congregated in a area together. Rather than spread out they may in rebellion have decided to stay close together. The rise in the number of murders resulted in this, which was a cause for the flood to begin with.
Perhaps God's judgment did not not extend to regions far beyond that area in which humans had populated.
The Old Testament says that the Queen of Sheba came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon. Geographically " the ends of the earth" there is not so far away as our modern age would assume in our global way of thinking. That would have been the distance of somewhere in Northern Africa ( I believe, perhaps Sudan or Ethiopia ) to Israel.
We are also told in the OT that all the world sought the wisdom of Solomon. I don't believe this has to mean people on the North American continent traveled back across the Bearing Straights again to seek Solomon's wisdom. I don't think it means Aboriginal tribles in Australia sought for Solomon's wisdom.
"World wide" flood I don't think means the entire planet.
Originally posted by sonshipIf that is the case, then there would have been no need to have built the Ark. Just showing the whole tale to be man made and an allegory not some kind of biblical retribution.
[b]But you understand how pitifully small this event is compared to a world wide flood, right?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The video is awesome. But having the fountains of the deep burst forth from under the earth must have been even more fearful.
God had told ea ...[text shortened]... ught for Solomon's wisdom.
"World wide" flood I don't think means the entire planet.[/b]
Why would a god who can make entire universes stoop to killing all land animals to get rid of some bad humans? That would not be a gracious loving god like you like to portray it, that would be an insane god. But we have had examples like that also.
Your god, if real, is insane and you worship it. Good luck with that. An insane god telling you you can live forever, just trust me......
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
If that is the case, then there would have been no need to have built the Ark.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your sense of efficiency means nothing here.
God has purpose. And far in advance to the fulfillment of His purpose He provided prefigures and pointers to His ultimate salvation.
Noah's flood is allegory but it is history too. God who is transcendent over time, of course, can do actual things in the world which also have allegorical significance. The ark of Noah is one.
Just showing the whole tale to be man made and an allegory not some kind of biblical retribution.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The history from the before and after the flood is told seamlessly. The clock does not stop and we suddenly transcend to some temporary higher level existentialism. The ark landed on "the mountains of Ararat".
That is not Mt. Ararat but rather "the mountains of Ararat". That covers a land area of about 100,000 square miles. And the Hebrew meaning would included anything the height of a rather high mountain to a hill.
Somewhere in a large area on "the mountains [plural] of Ararat" the ark landed. Traditions have existed for centuries that remains of an ark have been known to exist in that area.
And traditions of a great deluge and flood have existed in many cultures with often striking similarities. In the collective memory of man there is a recollection of a flood and a saving vessel of some kind.
So I believe we are dealing with history and allegory too. One does not make the other impossible, especially to a God of purpose who is over all history working out His eternal purpose.
I don't like your blasphemies. So I tend not to read many of your comments.
Why would a god who can make entire universes stoop to killing all land animals to get rid of some bad humans?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The man was placed by God over all His creation to be His deputy authority. The state of man therefore is important to the state of creation.
Of course in our modern sense we feel the universe can get along quite well without us. We may consider it even arrogant to think of our species as having some kind of preeminence over all other animals.
This, however, is not a problem of man's over self estimation. It is a problem of man having fallen so far from his purpose and meaning for creation as to be lost, failing to understand his connection to all other lives.
There are many instances in the Bible revealing that when God and man are in harmony the creation is marvelously under human / divine control.
Jesus did not walk on water, raise the dead, heal the sick, calm the storm for no reason. These acts were part of the revelation that God / Man subdue the very creation for the fulfillment of God's eternal purpose.
That would not be a gracious loving god like you like to portray it, that would be an insane god. But we have had examples like that also.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no problem is seeing varied sides to God - a gracious loving side and a sinless, righteous and holy side that will not let sin go un-dealt with.
As I read the Bible I have no problem in seeing a "holistic" panorama of this eternal uncreated Person from more than just one angle.
I can see the kindness and severity of God.
God's great love does not make His hatred for sin not exist. God's holiness and hatred for sin does not make His great love not exist.
As I read the Bible I get a rounded view of God from various angles. In your foolish way of thinking you think God should have only ONE side.
Your god, if real, is insane and you worship it. Good luck with that. An insane god telling you you can live forever, just trust me......
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He makes us one with Him and He is forever. And this is more than we would have thought to ask or perhaps think.
At any rate God's salvation puts us in Him, blended with Him, united with Him, indwelt by Him. And He is eternal.
Originally posted by sonhouseI beg to differ why would one death be worse than another once done dead is dead!
I can't grieve over every death that happens since it happens to 100% of every live form on Earth. I can get extremely upset over deaths from torture and if you are not upset over that then you need some empathy training.
You can't just say, if there is a god, THEN those deaths are terrible, which seems to be your mantra.
Those deaths were terrible, ...[text shortened]... ng all land life was already dead too?
How can you even BEGIN to believe such utter nonsense?
Life is where it matters not death, being tortured is terrible I agree, still that is human on
human suffering.
So you get upset at what humans do to one another and get pissed at God for that!?
I think the way we treat one another is important, it is the only thing that we do that
"should" be done properly to each other. That "should" screams out when evil is done
and we see it for what it is. It isn't my world view that accepts that as normal it is yours.
There is no "should" if there isn't a "should" that belongs to every human! Even if they
reject it they would still be bound by it with God. We know we are screwing up so we
have to make up excuses on why we treat each other badly, we give ourselves some
type of justification when we know we are NOT acting out as we are supposed to.
A godless world, there isn't single standard that we are all bound to! Instead what comes
does so by those who are in power, check out the middle east at the moment. ISIS is in
control of parts of the world and they are applying what they think is right. Some where
else some other group of people will comes along and do what they think is right, and that
is just the way it is with humans.
The fact that some agree and others do not would be the norm and our treating one
another badly is just acting out as humans do. The way the world works lions eat deer,
they rip them apart and eat them alive it is what lions do. People do what to one another
they are the ones preforming the list of acts you find evil do they not?
I swallow the scriptures hook line and sinker *correct* and I have no trouble admitting it.
Life on this planet is short and it ends for all of us at some time. What we do to others is
more important than what is done to us. I believe exactly what Jesus said, that we have
to forgive all or we cannot be forgiven.
The laws in genetics as in all things come from a source who holds the whole of the
universe together by the power of His Word. I have no doubt that God who spoke it
into reality can screw with it to do what He wants for His own reasons.
You are left with the facts we behave badly because we are what we are. A godless
universe just means the mirror you look into leaves you nothing to hide behind because
our nature has us doing these rapes, murders, and so on because that is who we are.
Some don't, but still our nature is what it is.
I like that God gives us an out to change into something better. For me that is better that
the crap you push out there that this is all caused by a lucky turn of events without a plan,
purpose, or design.
