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Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeYou mean Christ would be your 'moral compass,' surely?
You mean Christ would be your 'moral compass,' surely?
Genesis 4 tells us that, "sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”
The onus is on 'you' to avoid sin and act righteously. 'Morals' are for you to uphold, not simply commander from the almighty.
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Okay. The living Jesus Christ is a kind of moral GPS system or moral compass.
Genesis 4 tells us that, "sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”
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In the New Testament once Christ has been received into our hearts, indeed the onus is on us to set the mind on the regenerated spirit where the Spirit of Christ is.
This cooperation with the indwelling Spirit of Christ is what Paul speaks of in this exhortation to the Philippians.
" ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working." (Phil. 2:13)
The believer cooperates and God operates.
The living God operates and the one in whom God has come cooperates.
The onus is on 'you' to avoid sin and act righteously.
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And the way this onus is taken care of is to cooperate with the grace of Christ which is operating within him.
"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace." (Rom. 8:6)
The man who receives Jesus into his heart must learn to live a new way. He has installed into him a chamber deep within which previously he was completely ignorant of. The MIND is the leading part of the SOUL. He is to learn to SET the mind on that innermost kernel where the Spirit of Jesus is. Life and peace is the happiness of God with him and his actions.
Here Paul teaches the the human spirit and the Holy Spirit are mingled, blended, united as a new and radical nucleus in the man's being.
"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)
This means that the human spirit was here and the Holy Spirit was there. And the two have become united as "one spirit" within the believer. It is not a sentimental presence of Christ in just a mental way. It is the presence of Christ as part of one's very being.
The miracle of regeneration was purchased at a tremendous cost. You cannot create it on your own. And you could not purchase it with any amount of trillions of dollars. It is purchased by the blood of Christ in justifying you.
" But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the [human] spirit is [divine] life because of righteousness." (Rom. 8:10)
Christ is imparted into you and brings life - a Person into your being.
Your human spirit is now divine life only because you have been forgiven and justified - made righteous according to God's standard of righteousness. The spirit within you is now life "because of RIGHTEOUSNESS"
I'm not finished yet.
In regeneration the human spirit is the life of God, the life of Jesus Christ BECAUSE of righteousness which is now yours.
This Holy Spirit who is now JOINED to you as "one spirit" bears witness deep down in you, DEEPER than any worldly philsophy - you know that you know that you know you have an organic family relationship with God who you now call "Daddy, Abba Father,"
"The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God.
For you have not received a spirit of slavery bringing you into fear again, but you have received a spirit of sonship in which we cry, Abba Father!
The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God." (Rom. 8:15-16)
You know that you know that God is now your Daddy.
This is something that the world cannot give.
And the world cannot take it away.
'Morals' are for you to uphold, not simply commander from the almighty.
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Christian morals are the enjoyment of Christ within the believer.
This entire realm of one Person living a united and blended life with another is called "GRACE". It is an empowering living force.
Peter also pioneered in this radical experience. He said believers should also enter into this grace and stand in it.
Here is a song I wrote on this verse - https://soundcloud.com/jack-wilmore/enter-into-this-grace-1-pet-5129
" ... exhorting and testifying fully that this is the true grace of God; enter into this grace and stand in it." (1 Pet. 5:12)
Paul's last word written in the NT to his young co-worker was that the Lord was with his spirit and therefore this GRACE was with him.
" The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." ( 2 Tim. 4:22)
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11 Nov 17
The Bible has a lot to say about the experience of God being in you and everything for you. The grace of God.
The LAW of Moses was given.
But GRACE came with a Person - Jesus Christ.
When the Person came, GRACE came.
" For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)
Moral compass is okay if you understand that the compass is His living face guiding you with the index of His eyes deep in your heart.
Grace is the "power steering" of the Perfect man Jesus, living in you empowering you in your actions and reactions.
You apply cooperation and faith. Christ living in your spirit supplies power and guidance.
Originally posted by sonshipBUMP for sonship: So you have said the morals and virtues of believers and non-believers are basically the same. So, "Christian morals" are more or less the same as ordinary morals except the Christians applying them are convinced they are "letting the really perfect Moral One blend in with [their] living", is that a fair encapsulation?
Christian morals is letting the really perfect Moral One blend in with our living
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Originally posted by @fmfThat is mostly the humanist outsider's take on it.
BUMP for sonship: So you have said the morals and virtues of believers and non-believers are basically the same. So, "Christian morals" are more or less the same as ordinary morals except the Christians applying them are convinced they are "letting the really perfect Moral One blend in with [their] living", is that a fair encapsulation?
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Looking from the standpoint of no experience and unbelief, that is certainly how an agnostic / atheist would view it.
To the questions of "You have said...?" the answer is that YOU have said that and seek to place YOUR explanation into my mouth.
That Christians are convinced that Christ is risen, alive, available to be Lord in their lives is true. They are convinced of what is the convincing truth.
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Originally posted by @divegeester
Did you ever find the fortitude to state whether or not you thought FMF was a follower of Satan or not? I saw your lengthy hoop-jumping convolutions about how anyone who was not an follower of Jesus must be a follower of Satan so I suppose, like Becker, you are using a sort of arbitrary inference to carry your insult in the hope that the vagueness of it will help you avoid any consequential blow-back in the months/years ahead.
Did you ever find the fortitude to state whether or not you thought FMF was a follower of Satan or not? I saw your lengthy hoop-jumping convolutions about how anyone who was not an follower of Jesus must be a follower of Satan so I suppose, like Becker, you are using a sort of arbitrary inference to carry your insult in the hope that the vagueness of it will help you avoid any consequential blow-back in the months/years ahead.
In this thread and perhaps in one other I spoke to the matter. But I try not to make it a personal affair overmuch.
i had the fortitude to explain to him that "the whole world lies in the evil one" in the Bible. He should not feel particularly picked on.
I also explained that even Christ's leading disciple Peter, Christ scolded him on an occasion strongly indicating that his opinion once was indication of his following Satan.
I'm glad Peter didn't spend the rest of his life miffed about it or demanding that Jesus repeat clearly just what He said.
Bump for Jesus - "Excuse me Jesus, Am I right that you did say to me --- Get behind me Satan !?"
You can read these posts for yourself if you really are interested.
Originally posted by @sonshipYou have conceded that "Christian morals" are more or less the same as ordinary morals. Is this right: "Christian morals" are basically the same as ordinary morals except the Christians applying them believe that "Christ is risen, alive, available to be Lord in their lives is true", correct? It's thinking stuff like that that leads to the word "Christian" being added to the word "morals", in your view, right?
That Christians are convinced that Christ is risen, alive, available to be Lord in their lives is true. They are convinced of what is the convincing truth.
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11 Nov 17
Originally posted by @fmfWhat's your point?
You have conceded that "Christian morals" are more or less the same as ordinary morals. Is this right: "Christian morals" are basically the same as ordinary morals except the Christians applying them believe that "Christ is risen, alive, available to be Lord in their lives is true", correct? It's thinking stuff like that that leads to the word "Christian" being added to the word "morals", in your view, right?
That I am "conceding" that Christ is purely imaginary?
Living apart from Christ is not living true Christian morals.
Living by self improvement or trying hard to do better is not true Christian morals, I would say.
I spoke of the hand fitting inside of the glove to illustrate Christ living within human virtues.
That there is no hand for the glove or that Christ is not alive to live in man ?
No, "concession" on that ever.
Now a question for you. You spoke very strongly about God punishing forever. My question is this: Is this the single most offensive and obstacle matter you have that gives rise to you're rejection of the Gospel?
I mean of all the problems you might have with historicity of Jesus or textural transmission of the NT documents or anything else, is the one BIG problem above ALL others with Jesus - that He taught of eternal punishment ?
Yes or No would answer my question.
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Originally posted by @great-king-rat
Since you're asking: I have absolutely no idea what you're saying. FMF's simple question is the correct question and it is painfully clear you are just dodging and dodging and dodging.
You appear to be using your very own distorted definition of the word morality, and then get all up in arms when you get called out for it.
I'm sure there are a ...[text shortened]... rst posterchild Christianity could wish for. And I suppose that brings you a sense of martyrdom.
I'm sure there are a few of your fellow Christians here who support your absurd posts and non-replies,
What is absurd?
That Christ has been raised from the dead?
That is absurd?
That is wonderful. But it is not absurd.
That this Christ is in a form in which He can become blended with man bringing into man divine attributes and high human virtues? That is absurd?
No it is wonderful and something science could not do.
But it has stood the test of time, the torture test of time for 2,000 years of opposition, persecution, mixture, turmoil from within the church and without. No, that Jesus lives in people is wonderful but not absurd.
but let me assure you, for me as an atheist your posts in this thread (and elsewhere)
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Now I will tell you what I would call absolutely absurd - atheism.
That on your last day you will look back over the life of a human being in this universe tailored for your thriving and just think - "Boy, now that was kind of weird. No Creator God, no Moral God, no final accounting, no Christ in history, it all just kind of ... HAPPENED."
That's absurd.
11 Nov 17
Originally posted by @sonshipNo. Don't be silly. You don't think Christ is purely imaginary. Why would you "concede" that? The obvious point here - all the more interesting because of the way you are dodging dodging dodging - is that "Christian morals" and ordinary morals are only different in so far as Christians believe stuff about themselves and about Christ. That's all. You yourself said that morals and humsn virtues are basically the same whether one is a believer or a non-believer. That's the point. Your reaction to this simple point has been peculiar.
What's your point?
That I am "conceding" that Christ is purely imaginary?
11 Nov 17
Originally posted by @sonshipThe other deflecting stuff in your post... start threads about it. I'm asking you about this thread topic.
What's your point?
That I am "conceding" that Christ is purely imaginary?
Living apart from Christ is not living true Christian morals.
Living by self improvement or trying hard to do better is not true Christian morals, I would say.
I spoke of the hand fitting inside of the glove to illustrate Christ living within human virtues.
That there is no ...[text shortened]... hers with Jesus - that He taught of eternal punishment ?
Yes or No would answer my question.
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Originally posted by @fmfI don't believe "stuff." I know that Christ lives in me.
No. Don't be silly. You don't think Christ is purely imaginary. Why would you "concede" that? The obvious point here - all the more interesting because of the way you are dodging dodging dodging - is that "Christian morals" and ordinary morals are only different in so far as Christians believe stuff about themselves and about Christ. That's all. You yourself sa ...[text shortened]... iever or a non-believer. That's the point. Your reaction to this simple point has been peculiar.
And it will continue to seem "peculiar" to you.
I can't see how this line of interrogation serves any further purpose.
You have a question to you out there.
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It is no secret that the Christian walks by faith and not by sight.
it is no secret that Christ makes His home in our hearts through faith.
Don't feel sorry for us.
Everybody will eventually trust someone.
Whether that someone will come through or not ... is the issue.
We believe that Jesus will. His track record convinces us that He will again be faithful.
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Originally posted by @fmfDo you always say "Who knows?" when it gets down to critical factors of history?
Are self improvement or trying hard to do better 'amoral' for a Christian then?
When most historians of all persuasions agree that Jesus was executed by the Romans, does shrugging "Who know?" somehow reinforce your wanting to be non-committal about the claims of Jesus Christ?
11 Nov 17
Originally posted by @sonshipThe absurdity here is the lenghts you're going through to dodge FMF's question. The countless red herrings you toss around thinking they will disguise your unwillingness to answer FMF's question.I'm sure there are a few of your fellow Christians here who support your absurd posts and non-replies,
What is absurd?
That Christ has been raised from the dead?
That is absurd?
That is wonderful. But it is not absurd.
That this Christ is in a form in which He can become blended with man bringing into man divine attributes and ...[text shortened]... ccounting, no Christ in history, it all just kind of ... HAPPENED."
That's absurd.
This latest thing you're trying, pretending FMF is saying Christ is ficticious: it's laughable. Anyone following this thread can see you just made that up as a silly distraction.
I sincerely wonder what happened in your life that made you into this almost parody of a religious individual.
No need to answer; answer FMF's question instead.