A priori knowledge

Originally posted by lemon lime
The fact that Australian aborigines are able to sustain their way of life from one generation to the next is in itself evidence of them having this sort of innate understanding.

It's evidence of innate or hardwired [or learned] morality but not necessarily innate "knowledge of God".

Originally posted by lemon lime
[b]So, it would appear from this that your position is that knowledge of God is not innate...

No, I'm saying it is innate. There doesn't necessarily have to be a clearly defined understanding of God for understanding the difference between good and evil, even in the most primitive form. Otherwise I would have to assume any primitive people ( ...[text shortened]... e generation to the next is in itself evidence of them having this sort of innate understanding.[/b]

Why is a knowledge of God, however 'primitive' it might be, a necessary condition for the ability to discern good from evil?

Originally posted by DeepThought
Why is a knowledge of God, however 'primitive' it might be, a necessary condition for the ability to discern good from evil?

I didn't say or mean to imply a direct knowledge of God was a necessary condition, so either I didn't explain this very well or I'll need to explain it in some other way.

Where would an ability to discern good from evil come from if there was no innate ability to do so? I don't have the innate ability to fly like a bird, so I would necessarily need to build something that wasn't a natural part of myself for achieving flight. So even if I can fly it wouldn't be the result of an innate ability. The difference between an innate understanding of morality and flying is that I can't achieve a sense of morality by simply constructing something outside of myself... it necessarily needs to be a part of me. If this innate ability couldn't be found within everyone then an excuse for sinning would exist. But if no excuse for sin exists, then we can presume everyone is imbued with this particular innate understanding and ability.

According to the Bible knowing good from evil didn't actually kick in and become active until after they first sinned, and the potential for sinning was always present because of free will... they had the ability and opportunity to choose, and so do we. They had been given fair warning, and so have we. We might not enjoy being tested under these conditions, but I can find no cause for claiming unfairness*.

*the idea of 'unfairness' appears to be the salient (unspoken) point in question here.

Originally posted by DeepThought
So even what I called accidental atheists have no excuse?

None of us will have an excuse.

Right now in this life time you and I are limited to what we know, what we
believe, our limitations have us searching while I may project upon you
things you may know that you do not, things you may understand that you
don't. God doesn't have to guess our realizations our actions produce
something within us that God understands and when on judgment day rolls
around and all things are revealed we will all see it too.

One of the things that Jesus talked about when he was discussing is how
we will be treated by whom, when we reject the truth when others were
able to acknowledge it with far less information:

Matthew 12:40-42New International Version (NIV)

40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. 42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Don't know why you'd say that? You think you can earn your way into
God's Kingdom by doing good works? You also prefer that to knowing that
God gave you His righteousness in Christ so you could make it on His work
instead of yours?

It seems to me your religion is more concerned with the packaging than the contents.

Originally posted by OdBod
It seems to me your religion is more concerned with the packaging than the contents.

I'm sorry what?
The packaging is we are sinners in need of Jesus Christ to save us, we will
live for and with the Lord when we come to Him, but even there it isn't
something we can take personal pride in that is something we do that puts
us above another. Our righteousness rest with another not ourselves, and
our good deeds are also not even something I'd boast over since if it were
not for Jesus guiding our lives I'd be out doing my own thing, I give Him
more credit for my good works than I'd take on my own.

So if you think that is good packaging, uh, okay. I'm no different than any
one else here, a sinner in need of Christ.

Originally posted by KellyJay

I'm sorry what?
The packaging is we are sinners in need of Jesus Christ to save us, we will
live for and with the Lord when we come to Him, but even there it isn't
something we can take personal pride in that is something we do that puts
us above another. Our righteousness rest with another not ourselves, and
our good deeds are also not even something I'd boast over since if it were
not for Jesus guiding our lives I'd be out doing my own thing, I give Him
more credit for my good works than I'd take on my own.

So if you think that is good packaging, uh, okay. I'm no different than any
one else here, a sinner in need of Christ.

Are good deeds unnecessary? You just have to believe, that's all?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm sorry what?
The packaging is we are sinners in need of Jesus Christ to save us, we will
live for and with the Lord when we come to Him, but even there it isn't
something we can take personal pride in that is something we do that puts
us above another. Our righteousness rest with another not ourselves, and
our good deeds are also not even something ...[text shortened]... good packaging, uh, okay. I'm no different than any
one else here, a sinner in need of Christ.

You seem to be suggesting that without your religion you would not be doing good deeds.

Originally posted by OdBod
You seem to be suggesting that without your religion you would not be doing good deeds.

I am saying the life I had before Christ would have more to do with the life
I lead now and my desire to do good; moreover, my views of those around
me would have more to do with how good or bad I think they are to me
instead of Christ. If they were unworthy of my views than I wouldn't really
put a lot of effort into them, where now I know Jesus died for everyone no
matter what they have done, or are doing, and because He did that they
are of more worth than any views I have on them good or bad.

I also have to give God credit for leading my life! If all I have is a religion
than it is worthless. I didn't turn around because someone told me I needed
to lead a better life, I actually wanted to keep doing many of the things I
now shun because I enjoyed them, but God turned me around without
some bunch of people telling me to turn around.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I am saying the life I had before Christ would have more to do with the life
I lead now and my desire to do good; moreover, my views of those around
me would have more to do with how good or bad I think they are to me
instead of Christ. If they were unworthy of my views than I wouldn't really
put a lot of effort into them, where now I know Jesus died fo ...[text shortened]... enjoyed them, but God turned me around without
some bunch of people telling me to turn around.

From what you have said, Jesus did not die for everybody, only for those who believe in your god, irrespective of how "good" they have been.

Originally posted by OdBod
You seem to be suggesting that without your religion you would not be doing good deeds.

I believe the main point of the Christian religion is that we can not be good without God. Just any god will not do.

The Moral Argument

YouTube

Originally posted by FMF
Tell me how your God figure is "calling" to my Muslim neighbours? Why has "God" not once ~ in 1,400+ years ~ indicated or demonstrated that Judaism and Islam, for example, are not the correct way to worship Him, and that Christianity - according to you - is? Surely a "call" that sounds authentic only to a "few" and sounds inauthentic to the majority of human beings, is a bodged "call"?

Would you call 33% of the world's population only a "few" people?

Originally posted by OdBod
You seem to be suggesting that without your religion you would not be doing good deeds.

And what is wrong with that statement? I suggest that is true for most.

Learning about Christ and trying to live by his example causes most to become better people. That's the entire point. Love, not hate.

" ... I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." -- John 10:10, KJV

Originally posted by FMF
Are good deeds unnecessary? You just have to believe, that's all?

Good deeds, or "works", are a result of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, not a prerequisite.

Originally posted by Suzianne
And what is wrong with that statement? I suggest that is true for most.

Learning about Christ and trying to live by his example causes most to become better people. That's the entire point. Love, not hate.

" ... I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." -- John 10:10, KJV

An interesting suggestion, that " most" people don't do good things without religion. I think you must live in different world. Have you factored into your assertion all the terrible things done and being done in the name of religion? Reference your earlier statement regarding 33%, I wonder how many actually are genuine, rather than responding to surveys in an unthinking way?