Abiogenesis and evolution: James Tour

@kellyjay said
Please explain how a process that only weeds out the weak, and doesn't even think about that as its being done, is capable of creating new body plans, inputting informational instructions, and error checking, building systems that work together. There is nothing there that does these things with just a weeding-out process I don't care how much time you add to your mindless process.

You asked this…

“ I can point to functionally specialized operations guided by informational instructions in the real world, can you show some example of mindlessness doing anything positive on that level?”

You were given an answer, and now you’re moving the goalposts.
That’s disingenuous KellyJay.

So you accept that natural selection IS an “example of mindlessness doing something positive”, but now you are asking for an explanation of how it works…is that it?

@wildgrass said
It doesn't only weed out the weak. There are plenty of weak organisms hobbling about. The cute cuddly defenseless seahorse was around 14 million years ago, still kicking.

Maybe you can read a book about natural selection.

Explain the creative powers of natural selection, how it builds something when it doesn't care which way anything occurs, and how it hangs on to good things while everything is in a state of change, good, and bad is all the same in a mindless process.

@sonhouse said
@wildgrass
And it won't be shown scientifically that GODDIDIT.
I hope they can bring home samples of that water squirting hundreds of Km above the surface of Enceladus, James Webb scope showed the water squirting much higher than other telescopes saw.

Take the Spiritual forum, just talk about the mechanisms here, can you do that?

@indonesia-phil said
I think your understanding of the processes of evolution need some serious upgrading before you can sensibly discuss the subject. The alternative of course from a Christian perspective is that god made all the animals, then he made some different animals and killed off the first animals, then he made some more different animals.....Then he made some animals which were ...[text shortened]... hinking really belongs in Sunday School, and certainly not in any kind of an adult discussion forum.

Take it to the Spiritual forum, can you talk about the data, the mechanisms that a mindless process used to come up with new body plans, and new systems in life? You just want to bring up what you think lets you off the hook, play by your rules, and explain the science that allows a mindless process to create something new.

@moonbus said
In nature, there are no plans, therefore none to explain. There are no informational instructions, therefore none to explain. There is no error checking, therefore none to explain. You have been bamboozled by anthropomorphisms, metaphors, and figures of speech. None of these apply to molecules and cells. You do not understand how nature works or how science proposes to explain how it works. Please go back to Spirituality and stop spamming up the Science forum.

You are about as clueless as they come if that is what you think, explain how the science works where a chemical reaction will at some point produce a living cell using only mindless processes.

@kellyjay said
Explain the creative powers of natural selection, how it builds something when it doesn't care which way anything occurs, and how it hangs on to good things while everything is in a state of change, good, and bad is all the same in a mindless process.

How much time do you have? A book about molecular biology would be a good start point for discussion.

@wildgrass said
How much time do you have? A book about molecular biology would be a good start point for discussion.

Kellyjay doesn’t accept the scientific explanation of gravity, let alone molecular biology.

@kellyjay said
You are about as clueless as they come if that is what you think, explain how the science works where a chemical reaction will at some point produce a living cell using only mindless processes.

Abstract

The origin of life (OOL) problem remains one of the more challenging scientific questions of all time. In this essay, we propose that following recent experimental and theoretical advances in systems chemistry, the underlying principle governing the emergence of life on the Earth can in its broadest sense be specified, and may be stated as follows: all stable (persistent) replicating systems will tend to evolve over time towards systems of greater stability. The stability kind referred to, however, is dynamic kinetic stability, and quite distinct from the traditional thermodynamic stability which conventionally dominates physical and chemical thinking. Significantly, that stability kind is generally found to be enhanced by increasing complexification, since added features in the replicating system that improve replication efficiency will be reproduced, thereby offering an explanation for the emergence of life's extraordinary complexity. On the basis of that simple principle, a fundamental reassessment of the underlying chemistry–biology relationship is possible, one with broad ramifications. In the context of the OOL question, this novel perspective can assist in clarifying central ahistoric aspects of abiogenesis, as opposed to the many historic aspects that have probably been forever lost in the mists of time.

More here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3718341/

What do you think?

@kellyjay said
Explain the creative powers of natural selection, how it builds something when it doesn't care which way anything occurs, and how it hangs on to good things while everything is in a state of change, good, and bad is all the same in a mindless process.

There is no good or bad in nature. Only humans make such value judgments.

@divegeester said
Kellyjay doesn’t accept the scientific explanation of gravity, let alone molecular biology.

There is no gravity. The earth sucks. 😛

@wildgrass said
How much time do you have? A book about molecular biology would be a good start point for discussion.

I've asked you to just explain how a mindless process with all the time you think you want would build anything functionally complex so that it has error checking for self-repair! There is no creativity within your "bingo" ed natural selection any so-called good reaction would be meaningless and just as easily wiped out as a new bad one appeared. As soon as you have all of the ingredients for a good step in one place at one time, once all of the reactions occur with those chemicals if you don't move on to the next step immediately you've lost what you had if any that would inhibit proper reactions is in the mix, or anything that contaminates the mixture ruins it.

When we attempt to do it with our intelligence we buy and keep safe all of our material, and with carefully controlled step-by-step processes attempt what the true believers in "deep time did it" think could be done mindlessly under a rock or in a pond somewhere.

@moonbus said
There is no gravity. The earth sucks. 😛

A monument of reason you are.

@moonbus said
There is no good or bad in nature. Only humans make such value judgments.

You realize I was pointing out the process of making life, how off-point you get when attempting to say things that have nothing to do with the conversation as if you have a clue when so far you only have insults.

@kellyjay said
A monument of reason you are.

Do you accept the scientific explanation of gravity?

@wildgrass said
How much time do you have? A book about molecular biology would be a good start point for discussion.

I'll grant you all the time you want, it isn't how much time that is the issue, but precise timing, and on-time material is available in the proper quantities. How about explaining how a mindless process would and could build something functionally complex so there is error checking? You know things like blood clotting, an immune system, and so on.